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Character Creation Q&A


Paxon

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Hm. How does the Firearm proficiency changes interact with Martial Traditions? The Simple, Martial, and Heavy weapons distinction is still good for characters using 1pp classes only, but it matters less for Spheres of Might characters who don't get broad Martial proficiencies, and that one Discipline talent granting wide-scale Firearm proficiency also gives you the Gunsmith feat, so does that get any changes or does it stay the same? Are Gunslingers automatically proficient in Heavy firearms too?

This doesn't have much to do with character creation, but ah, do abilities used by the Tank crew while operating the tank benefit from its size? Like getting a +4 intimidate bonus if it's larger than the target while using Straight Down the Barrel, or bonuses for Overrunning foes and stuff.

In the Character Creation rules thread, I've got a small correction on the Dueling weapon property. You can perform Trip maneuvers with any weapon so long as they can perform melee attacks, the Trip property just lets you drop it in place of tripping yourself if you fail by a 5 or more. Similar case with any maneuver that can be done in place of melee attacks, they work with pretty much anything RAW, you just need to be able to justify using your weapon with it effectively without it being ridiculous enough that it prompts you to veto it as the GM (like if someone's using a rusty knife to dazzle someone via Dirty Trick). Drag or Overrun might be a better example of something that can't usually be done with a weapon. Pointing this out cause ah, I like using maneuvers a lot with martial characters, so wondered if this was just a mistake on your part or if you're unfamiliar with how the mechanics piece together here.

Also in that same thread, the Spoiler box detailing your Feat Tax Reduction rules cuts off around the "Improved Unarmed Combat: ..." mark. Not sure what's up with that, might be good to bring up in the bug thread.

Edited by Niblooey (see edit history)
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These are all great questions, and most of them are simple misses on my part. I knew there were going to be holes this ruleset I didn't catch.

1 hour ago, Niblooey said:

Hm. How does the Firearm proficiency changes interact with Martial Traditions? The Simple, Martial, and Heavy weapons distinction is still good for characters using 1pp classes only, but it matters less for Spheres of Might characters who don't get broad Martial proficiencies, and that one Discipline talent granting wide-scale Firearm proficiency also gives you the Gunsmith feat, so does that get any changes or does it stay the same? Are Gunslingers automatically proficient in Heavy firearms too?

That one Firearm proficiency discipline (I'll make sure I have the name right when the Russian hack of the wiki is resolved 🤨 ) will give proficiency with Martial firearms for sure. I need to decide exactly where to wrap proficiency in the heavy weapons, it should be an exotic weapon proficiency, but I'd like to encompass them all within a talent for spheres use. I'll make sure I update this accordingly in the Firearms Rules thread, thanks for bringing it to my attention. The Gunslinger will not automatically have proficiency with Heavy Weapons, however they will be able to choose any simple firearm as the weapon they gain at 1st level. (Edit: I forgot the Gunsmith feature is removed, so ignore this remark.) I'll make sure to add these items to the firearms thread at my earliest opportunity.

1 hour ago, Niblooey said:

This doesn't have much to do with character creation, but ah, do abilities used by the Tank crew while operating the tank benefit from its size? Like getting a +4 intimidate bonus if it's larger than the target while using Straight Down the Barrel, or bonuses for Overrunning foes and stuff.

Yeah, I'm applying the size modifier on the tank, so that +4 intimidate bonus would apply, +4 CMB, -4 to AC, etc. I'm not going to apply to its attack roll to shoot, as that is a precision instrument. 

 

1 hour ago, Niblooey said:

In the Character Creation rules thread, I've got a small correction on the Dueling weapon property. You can perform Trip maneuvers with any weapon so long as they can perform melee attacks, the Trip property just lets you drop it in place of tripping yourself if you fail by a 5 or more. Similar case with any maneuver that can be done in place of melee attacks, they work with pretty much anything RAW, you just need to be able to justify using your weapon with it effectively without it being ridiculous enough that it prompts you to veto it as the GM (like if someone's using a rusty knife to dazzle someone via Dirty Trick). Drag or Overrun might be a better example of something that can't usually be done with a weapon. Pointing this out cause ah, I like using maneuvers a lot with martial characters, so wondered if this was just a mistake on your part or if you're unfamiliar with how the mechanics piece together here.

Also in that same thread, the Spoiler box detailing your Feat Tax Reduction rules cuts off around the "Improved Unarmed Combat: ..." mark. Not sure what's up with that, might be good to bring up in the bug thread.

You are correct, and that trip example snuck in from the place I copied it. I'll get rid of the example, it's inaccurate. 

And that Improved Unarmed Combat was another straight miss on my part. I was meaning to copy the correct text in there and missed. Correcting that shortly.

 

If you spot anything else amiss, don't hesitate to let me know.

Edited by Paxon (see edit history)
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I have a concept in mind, but I have several questions about how well it might (or might not) fit into the game.

 

I'm thinking of a highly mobile/stealthy scout/outrider type.

 

So first off, is a character that's designed to not actually spend much time inside The Tank a good fit? Obviously the game sort of revolves around The Tank, so on one hand I'm thinking it may not be a good fit. On the other hand, tactically speaking, having a very fast, stealthy, and highly maneuverable scout unit would probably be very handy to have when your only other vehicle is a lugging, conspicuous behemoth.

 

Secondly, I just noticed that Hunter isn't on your list of allowed classes, and that's the class my initial idea was based on, so I figure I'll ask here just to double-check: would you consider allowing a Hunter with the SoM Beastmaster archetype? It removes spellcasting and all other supernatural/spell-like abilities. It's not on your available classes list, but does fit your criteria of "classes are limited to those that don't have magical powers or have archetypes available that allow them to operate without magic powers,  and Ranger (a clearly similar class) is on the approved list (with appropriate archetype). However, flavor-wise, this hearkens back to the first question - do you feel it would just be too against the feel/premise of the game to have a character who is based (at least in part) on riding around on an animal instead of riding around in The Tank?

 

I'm sure I can still accomplish the goal with another class, but my first question still stands, so depending on your answers to these questions, I'm sure I'll have more, lol.

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10 hours ago, PigLickJF said:

I have a concept in mind, but I have several questions about how well it might (or might not) fit into the game.

 

I'm thinking of a highly mobile/stealthy scout/outrider type.

 

So first off, is a character that's designed to not actually spend much time inside The Tank a good fit? Obviously the game sort of revolves around The Tank, so on one hand I'm thinking it may not be a good fit. On the other hand, tactically speaking, having a very fast, stealthy, and highly maneuverable scout unit would probably be very handy to have when your only other vehicle is a lugging, conspicuous behemoth.

 

Secondly, I just noticed that Hunter isn't on your list of allowed classes, and that's the class my initial idea was based on, so I figure I'll ask here just to double-check: would you consider allowing a Hunter with the SoM Beastmaster archetype? It removes spellcasting and all other supernatural/spell-like abilities. It's not on your available classes list, but does fit your criteria of "classes are limited to those that don't have magical powers or have archetypes available that allow them to operate without magic powers,  and Ranger (a clearly similar class) is on the approved list (with appropriate archetype). However, flavor-wise, this hearkens back to the first question - do you feel it would just be too against the feel/premise of the game to have a character who is based (at least in part) on riding around on an animal instead of riding around in The Tank?

 

I'm sure I can still accomplish the goal with another class, but my first question still stands, so depending on your answers to these questions, I'm sure I'll have more, lol.

I am definitely wary of that type of character for this game. The premise is built around a tank crew that is working together to serve the tank. Further a lot of that kind of action would end up being akin to a constant splitting of the party, where I'm handling the scouts POV and several actions, and then the tank crew in another POV. Your point is sound about a scout type being useful. I'm going to say I won't outright say no, but find a way to integrate really well with the tank and crew. You would need to spend a majority of the time in/on the tank, with outrider or riding flank sessions as tactical options, not the primary thing the character is doing. 

 

On Hunter, I'm pretty sure that the Beastmaster archetype will be allowed for the class. I'm going to have to take another look once the wikidot servers are back up to give you a definitive yes, but since there exists an SoM archetype, I'm betting it will work fine.

7 hours ago, Llyarden said:

Given that magic items don't exist in any meaningful fashion, do the Blacksmith's Reforge and Artisan Savant abilities get replaced with anything?

My inclination is to have the Reforge ability basically work with the additional Masterwork rules, so you'll be able to reforge masterwork items into other similarly appointed masterwork items. Similarly I'm going to need to give it another review once the server is back up to give you a definitive answer, but expect some version of that. I'm going to need to take another look at Artisan Savant as well to answer more intelligently. That feature gives you the ability to craft magic items, right?

 

 

(Side note, I really like how easy it is to quote multiple different posts on Baldr!)

Edited by Paxon (see edit history)
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38 minutes ago, Paxon said:

I am definitely wary of that type of character for this game. The premise is built around a tank crew that is working together to serve the tank. Further a lot of that kind of action would end up being akin to a constant splitting of the party, where I'm handling the scouts POV and several actions, and then the tank crew in another POV. Your point is sound about a scout type being useful. I'm going to say I won't outright say no, but find a way to integrate really well with the tank and crew. You would need to spend a majority of the time in/on the tank, with outrider or riding flank sessions as tactical options, not the primary thing the character is doing.

All great points, and completely understood. I actually hadn't really considered the split party angle and how disruptive/difficult that can be to handle, especially for the GM.

 

I'll continue working on the concept, but put less emphasis on the scouting and more on the Tanking. I also realize now that there are 5 Tank stations - I read them all last night, but for some reason I remembered there being 4 (LOTS of info to read for this game - which is great!), and I thought I saw you were looking for 5-6 characters, so I figured there would be more "space" for characters not taking a tank station. Definitely wouldn't make much sense to have one station usually unmanned, though.

 

38 minutes ago, Paxon said:

On Hunter, I'm pretty sure that the Beastmaster archetype will be allowed for the class. I'm going to have to take another look once the wikidot servers are back up to give you a definitive yes, but since there exists an SoM archetype, I'm betting it will work fine.

Ok, I'll wait to hear your final answer on Beastmaster. Given my change in emphasis, I may decide to go with a different class anyway - the animal companion was mostly for speed/mobility, but since I'll be focusing less on that, it may not be the best choice. I may still go with it (assuming you allow it, of course), but I'll be looking at other options as well.

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Updates after being able to review some materials using Wayback Machine (thanks for that rec PigLickJF)

 

Firearms: The Firearm Proficiency (discipline) talent will give you proficiency with martial firearms. I'm going to introduce a separate talent Heavy Gunner Proficiency that will give you proficiency with all heavy firearms. Gunslinger does not automatically have proficiency with heavy firearms, not quite their thing. There is always the Custom Training talent if folks have a specific combination of martial and heavy firearms they wanted to use. I'm also going to make the Gunsmithing feat apply to modern firearms and ammunition, so it has some utility and will still be included in Firearm Proficiency.

 

Hunter: Beastmaster archetype approved. Reservations on that overall character concept still stand, but if you can pull it off in a way that addresses my concerns (basically still spending majority of time with tank) I'm not outright saying no.

 

On a related note, and I'll be sure to make this clear somewhere besides this answer, I am open to a lot of re-fluffing to have things fit the setting. One of the things I was thinking about was including the possibility of mounts being vehicles or otherwise technological version of mounts. They'd need to basically keep similar stats to an animal mount, but I would be open to, for instance, I horse actually being a motorcyle with a very rudimentary AI that you still ride with the Ride skill, handle with beastmastery, etc. You could throw that sucker on a rack on the tank, and pull it out when you need to ride.

 

Blacksmith: So yes, the Reforge ability will work for Masterwork items under the additional system as it did for Magic Items. You can reforge a weapon into another weapon keeping the masterwork qualities, same going for armor, shields, and ammo, with the restrictions listed on the original ability. It will also apply to Siege Engines, likely with added time needed for size.  As for Artisan Savant, I'm considering alternatives, but one good one would be to simply use the Techsmith archetype, which replaces what you would gain with Artisan Savant with a little dip into Technician abilities. That's really all it replaces, so I think it's a good alternative.

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4 minutes ago, PigLickJF said:

I'll continue working on the concept, but put less emphasis on the scouting and more on the Tanking. I also realize now that there are 5 Tank stations - I read them all last night, but for some reason I remembered there being 4 (LOTS of info to read for this game - which is great!), and I thought I saw you were looking for 5-6 characters, so I figured there would be more "space" for characters not taking a tank station. Definitely wouldn't make much sense to have one station usually unmanned, though.

Looks like we posted right at the same time. You have my answers. And yeah, there ended up being a lot more custom material than I thought I was going to have!

 

The objective is a little more for the tank to be a primary focus and crewing it to be an activity that is both fun and beneficial. Hence all my additional actions for the stations. However, I'm hoping it is a lot more dynamic than everyone feeling they MUST stay at their station always, because that isn't my intention. It will definitely fight very potently if everyone does. But I made sure it can do pretty decently with say, just a gunner and driver, or just a commander and loader, if the rest of the crew need to get out and fend off a bunch of sneaky infantry that are trying to swarm it, or work out another clever tactic to deal with enemies.

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14 minutes ago, Paxon said:

On a related note, and I'll be sure to make this clear somewhere besides this answer, I am open to a lot of re-fluffing to have things fit the setting. One of the things I was thinking about was including the possibility of mounts being vehicles or otherwise technological version of mounts. They'd need to basically keep similar stats to an animal mount, but I would be open to, for instance, I horse actually being a motorcyle with a very rudimentary AI that you still ride with the Ride skill, handle with beastmastery, etc. You could throw that sucker on a rack on the tank, and pull it out when you need to ride.

That's pretty awesome, and I was actually going to ask about that. Now you're making me want to stick with Beastmaster, lol.

 

On that note, in terms of companions, do they get feats every level like PCs? Do they get Oath points? Just wondering since the PCs are bumped up quite a bit from standard if the companions get any bumps as well to help them keep up. Also, with the "reskin" above, how would their natural attacks work? Actually, I suppose you could just reskin those as blades, spikes, etc. - not so much the companion actually attacking itself, but you steering.guiding it in such a way as to damage your opponent with the vehicle. Pretty gang cool...

Edited by PigLickJF (see edit history)
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22 minutes ago, Paxon said:

Blacksmith: So yes, the Reforge ability will work for Masterwork items under the additional system as it did for Magic Items. You can reforge a weapon into another weapon keeping the masterwork qualities, same going for armor, shields, and ammo, with the restrictions listed on the original ability. It will also apply to Siege Engines, likely with added time needed for size.  As for Artisan Savant, I'm considering alternatives, but one good one would be to simply use the Techsmith archetype, which replaces what you would gain with Artisan Savant with a little dip into Technician abilities. That's really all it replaces, so I think it's a good alternative.

I'm probably going to go Iron Chef, so the 5th-level Techsmith feature giving a Maintenance option doesn't really work for me, unfortunately.  Or I guess I can just ignore that ability.

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1 hour ago, PigLickJF said:

On that note, in terms of companions, do they get feats every level like PCs? Do they get Oath points? Just wondering since the PCs are bumped up quite a bit from standard if the companions get any bumps as well to help them keep up. Also, with the "reskin" above, how would their natural attacks work? Actually, I suppose you could just reskin those as blades, spikes, etc. - not so much the companion actually attacking itself, but you steering.guiding it in such a way as to damage your opponent with the vehicle. Pretty gang cool...

I don't want Companions to have a ton of prominence, but I'll give them 1 bonus feat (in addition to normal feat progression, and instead of 1 per level), and 1 trait. They also benefit from background skills. If they are machines, I'll probably use a version of Mechanical Best Friends as found among the Technician Class technical insights. And you got it, natural attacks would be spikes, wheels, blades, mad max style stuff

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1 hour ago, Llyarden said:

I'm probably going to go Iron Chef, so the 5th-level Techsmith feature giving a Maintenance option doesn't really work for me, unfortunately.  Or I guess I can just ignore that ability.

You would at least still get the option of Technical Insights and that little bonus to Disable Device. But yeah, otherwise it's not necessarily a huge loss. I'd be willing to listen to reasonable alternatives. I considered giving Craft Construct without the prereqs and stripping the magical quality from it, but that's a can of worms I'm not sure I want to open.

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I'm also drawing up a blacksmith (in fairness, it's a pretty obvious choice for this campaign).  I'm wondering if you would allow a blacksmith to use Profession (Blacksmithing) instead of knowledge (engineering) for tank-related purposes after they get Skilled craftsman at 2nd level.

 

Also, I want to make a mutant, but I don't know spheres of power at all, and the wiki going down doesn't help, so I don't know how feasible it's going to be.  I want something large and packing ludicrously heavy guns.  Think the TF2 Heavy or Fallout super mutants.  Is that a thing I can do, or am I going to have to go back to the drawing board?

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44 minutes ago, Demented said:

Also, I want to make a mutant, but I don't know spheres of power at all, and the wiki going down doesn't help, so I don't know how feasible it's going to be.  I want something large and packing ludicrously heavy guns.  Think the TF2 Heavy or Fallout super mutants.  Is that a thing I can do, or am I going to have to go back to the drawing board?

By RAW, mutant won't do this. It can be done with the Origin sphere rules, but it will take both of your potent talents (i.e. it will be basically the only "racial" ability you get). (Pax is, of course, free to change those answers as he sees fit, just trying to help.)

 

That being said, I don't think there's really a reason/benefit to actually being size large with modern weapons, at least not in the rules listed in the rules forum. You may be fine with just taking the Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Heavy Weapons), or the Heavy Gunner Proficiency (discipline) talent, and then just describe your character as being especially large (remember, medium size actually goes up to 8' tall, so you can still be pretty massive).

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