OOC/Brainstorm BlackFinch's Game

[PixCO]

First roll of the game and it's a nat 20? Let me know if I did that incorrectly. I can re-roll.

[SMARTAgentKC]

So it's seems Blackfinch has ghosted for the time being, (hasn't been on since November 9th) So I'll have his character watch the wagon for this round while the others go into the citadel.

[PixCO]

@SMARTAgentKC For my own clarification -- Since Yopine had her xbow in her off hand, would she have been able to use it for her Dread Ambush bonus attack on another rat if she'd dropped the first one on the first attack? I don't actually know if that's allowed with this particular feat or if it has to be with the same weapon (Short Sword), against the same target (Yop's melee rat).

 

EDIT: Also need some education on Advantage/Disadvantage. May I ask what gave the rats an Advantage on their stealth roll?

Edited December 1, 2023 by PixCO
Clarity (see edit history)

[SMARTAgentKC]

The dread ambush feature basically allows you to make a second weapon attack on your first turn of combat as part of your action. Research says it can even be the weapon you did the first attack with but it doesn't have to be. Either way you first attack only did 6 damage (rats have 7 hp) so the next one would have still been in melee

The rats had advantage in stealth because they were hiding in the rubble and were moving carefully to ambush their targets. It is written in the monster description that the population of giant rats that live in the citadel are ambush hunters waiting for anything that comes into range

[PixCO]

3 hours ago, SMARTAgentKC said:

The dread ambush feature basically allows you to make a second weapon attack on your first turn of combat as part of your action. Research says it can even be the weapon you did the first attack with but it doesn't have to be. Either way you first attack only did 6 damage (rats have 7 hp) so the next one would have still been in melee

The rats had advantage in stealth because they were hiding in the rubble and were moving carefully to ambush their targets. It is written in the monster description that the population of giant rats that live in the citadel are ambush hunters waiting for anything that comes into range

Ah -- so it's a Circumstantial Advantage as by the PHB page 60. Got it. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something in regards to ADV/DIS by way of Proficiency or something. Thank you.

And good to know on the bonus attack. It could have been the loaded, readied, hand xbow if she'd killed her rat on the first strike. Actually, she still could have used the hand xbow against a second target, but the still-alive melee rat would have then gotten an AoO if I'm understanding correctly?

Sounds good. These are the things I need to learn.

Edited December 1, 2023 by PixCO (see edit history)

[BobtheWizard]

12 minutes ago, PixCO said:

Ah -- so it's a Circumstantial Advantage as by the PHB page 60. Got it. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something in regards to ADV/DIS by way of Proficiency or something. Thank you.

And good to know on the bonus attack. It could have been the loaded, readied, hand xbow if she'd killed her rat on the first strike. Actually, she still could have used the hand xbow against a second target, but the still-alive melee rat would have then gotten an AoO if I'm understanding correctly?

Sounds good. These are the things I need to learn.

5e does not give AOO against a ranged attack in melee. It is just that the ranged attack is at disadvantage if there is an enemy within 5'.

Dread ambusher is just an extra attack in the first round. It can be made with any weapon you have in your hand.

Crossbows have the loading property, which means you can only make one attack per round unless you have the crossbow expert feat. Even with that feat, though, crossbows still have the ammunition property which means you need a free hand to load it.

So, Dread Ambusher equals one free attack in the first round. Crossbow expert gives you a BA attack if you attack (two weapon fighting can do the same thing). CBE works even if your first attack is with the hand crossbow. So with Dread ambusher and crossbow expert, you could make three attacks in the first round - Attack action, Dread Ambusher, and bonus action for the hand crossbow attack. All of the attacks could be made with the hand crossbow.

[PixCO]

4 minutes ago, BobtheWizard said:

5e does not give AOO against a ranged attack in melee. It is just that the ranged attack is at disadvantage if there is an enemy within 5'.

Dread ambusher is just an extra attack in the first round. It can be made with any weapon you have in your hand.

Crossbows have the loading property, which means you can only make one attack per round unless you have the crossbow expert feat. Even with that feat, though, crossbows still have the ammunition property which means you need a free hand to load it.

So, Dread Ambusher equals one free attack in the first round. Crossbow expert gives you a BA attack if you attack (two weapon fighting can do the same thing). CBE works even if your first attack is with the hand crossbow. So with Dread ambusher and crossbow expert, you could make three attacks in the first round - Attack action, Dread Ambusher, and bonus action for the hand crossbow attack. All of the attacks could be made with the hand crossbow.

Thank you for the clarification. I thought it was an AoO, but you're right. It's just Dis. Xbow Xpert mitigates that once she picks it up. But AoO still looks like it applies to movement within combat. I'll read through those rules again.

And yea. Been reading a lot on that Ammunition vs. Loading issue. Still needs two hands to reload, but the feat allows for Bonus Attacks if she's just using the Xbow.

 

However I did not put together that the Xbow Xpert BA stacks with Dread Ambush. I assumed only one would be allowed, like the PB doubling on Skill Expertise. I assumed wrong, very cool. Are the rules I'm using correct and the Dread attack is always 1d8 regardless of the weapon used?

 

And as long as I'm learning, can you double=check my thinking on Hunter's Mark and Favored Foe? Both require Concentration, so Yopine would not be able to use both at the same time, correct?

[BobtheWizard]

1 hour ago, PixCO said:

But AoO still looks like it applies to movement within combat. I'll read through those rules again.

 

Are the rules I'm using correct and the Dread attack is always 1d8 regardless of the weapon used?

 

And as long as I'm learning, can you double=check my thinking on Hunter's Mark and Favored Foe? Both require Concentration, so Yopine would not be able to use both at the same time, correct?

AOO is only if they leave your reach. They can move around you fine unless you have the sentinel feat.

Dread attack is always an extra d8, in addition to the normal weapon dice and bonuses.

Yes. Hunter's Mark and Favored Foe both take concentration so can't be used together. I take Favored foe unless I'm in a themed campaign (undead, dragons, etc.) in which case I stick with the PHB option. I don't like Hunter's Mark with CBE since they both use your bonus action. You have to give up a BA crossbow attack at 1d6+3 to cast or move Hunter's Mark.

[PixCO]

49 minutes ago, BobtheWizard said:

AOO is only if they leave your reach. They can move around you fine unless you have the sentinel feat.

Dread attack is always an extra d8, in addition to the normal weapon dice and bonuses.

Yes. Hunter's Mark and Favored Foe both take concentration so can't be used together. I take Favored foe unless I'm in a themed campaign (undead, dragons, etc.) in which case I stick with the PHB option. I don't like Hunter's Mark with CBE since they both use your bonus action. You have to give up a BA crossbow attack at 1d6+3 to cast or move Hunter's Mark.

Yes, but once you have someone Marked you deal an extra 1d6 with each weapon attack for the duration of the spell. 1 hour or lost concentration. I think she'd only have to give up one CBE BA, and then the +1d6 would apply to both her normal attach and the BA. I might have that misread, or be using outdated sources.

If cast out-of-combat, then the +1d6 would also apply to the Dread Ambush attack as well?

[BobtheWizard]

4 hours ago, PixCO said:

Yes, but once you have someone Marked you deal an extra 1d6 with each weapon attack for the duration of the spell. 1 hour or lost concentration. I think she'd only have to give up one CBE BA, and then the +1d6 would apply to both her normal attach and the BA. I might have that misread, or be using outdated sources.

If cast out-of-combat, then the +1d6 would also apply to the Dread Ambush attack as well?

You have to cast the spell on a target, so you can't precast it. Then you can only move the spell when that target drops to 0 HP, and then moving the spell to another target takes another BA. So it doesn't mix terribly well with crossbow expert or two weapon fighting.

Other than that, yes, the +1d6 adds to all attacks, including bonus action attacks. Gloomstalker is perhaps the best build for it. Give up the 1d6+3 BA attack for 1d6 to each of your two attacks in the first round. Then you get 1d6 to each attack in subsequent rounds. But after that first round, whenever your target drops to 0 HP, you are giving up a 1d6+3 bonus action attack to add 1d6 to your action attack.

For me, I've found a lot of rounds where my action kills someone, then I don't get the bonus for my BA attack that round (since you can't move it until a subsequent round), then next round, I have to give up my BA attack to mark someone else. I think it's still a slight increase in total damage, but not as much as it looks.

[PixCO]

11 hours ago, BobtheWizard said:

You have to cast the spell on a target, so you can't precast it. Then you can only move the spell when that target drops to 0 HP, and then moving the spell to another target takes another BA. So it doesn't mix terribly well with crossbow expert or two weapon fighting.

Other than that, yes, the +1d6 adds to all attacks, including bonus action attacks. Gloomstalker is perhaps the best build for it. Give up the 1d6+3 BA attack for 1d6 to each of your two attacks in the first round. Then you get 1d6 to each attack in subsequent rounds. But after that first round, whenever your target drops to 0 HP, you are giving up a 1d6+3 bonus action attack to add 1d6 to your action attack.

For me, I've found a lot of rounds where my action kills someone, then I don't get the bonus for my BA attack that round (since you can't move it until a subsequent round), then next round, I have to give up my BA attack to mark someone else. I think it's still a slight increase in total damage, but not as much as it looks.

Agreed. The big play is saving it for boss fights. Which makes sense given the low number of spells she can cast at this level. Rats can just eat steel.

Speaking of which - I missed the chance to have Yopine pop a healing potion. She would have done that before going forward. I'll get it declared on her next post.

[PixCO]

Apologies for the double-posting, but I've been re-reading Turn Mechanics and I have a couple of questions about Favored Foe.

Dread Ambusher uses the explicit phrase "... as part of that action." That explains why the bonus d8 doesn't count as a BA. Favored Foe isn't as clear, though. So, do class features require any sort of Action by default? FF doesn't specify one way or another, but it really feels like it should have a BA casting time.

Also -- Tasha makes it sound like the bonus d4s stack each round of damage. 2d4 the next time, 3d4 after that up to a max of 10d4 on the last round of the minute. I'd like to think I'm mis-reading that. @SMARTAgentKC did say Gloom Stalkers were lethal, but that's just not right.

[BobtheWizard]

41 minutes ago, PixCO said:

Apologies for the double-posting, but I've been re-reading Turn Mechanics and I have a couple of questions about Favored Foe.

Dread Ambusher uses the explicit phrase "... as part of that action." That explains why the bonus d8 doesn't count as a BA. Favored Foe isn't as clear, though. So, do class features require any sort of Action by default? FF doesn't specify one way or another, but it really feels like it should have a BA casting time.

Also -- Tasha makes it sound like the bonus d4s stack each round of damage. 2d4 the next time, 3d4 after that up to a max of 10d4 on the last round of the minute. I'd like to think I'm mis-reading that. @SMARTAgentKC did say Gloom Stalkers were lethal, but that's just not right.

There is no default action cost for abilities in 5e. Everything does what it says. For Favored Foe, it says "When you hit a creature with an attack roll" but does not give an action cost, so it doesn't cost an action. You just have to hit a creature.

It's only d4. You are not increasing the bonus, you are increasing the base damage - "first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy and deal damage to it." While hunters mark applies to every attack, favored foe only applies once per round on your turn. That's why it doesn't cost a bonus action to place it.

So for you with a hand crossbow, on the first round you can BA cast hunter's mark, then favored foe with your first attack. With a 16 Dex, you'll do

2d6+3 on the main attack, 2d6+3+1d8 on the dread ambusher, then add 1d4 to the first one that hits. Then on round two, replace the dread ambusher attack with a bonus action crossbow attack, unless you need to move hunters mark.

[PixCO]

43 minutes ago, BobtheWizard said:

There is no default action cost for abilities in 5e. Everything does what it says. For Favored Foe, it says "When you hit a creature with an attack roll" but does not give an action cost, so it doesn't cost an action. You just have to hit a creature.

It's only d4. You are not increasing the bonus, you are increasing the base damage - "first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy and deal damage to it." While hunters mark applies to every attack, favored foe only applies once per round on your turn. That's why it doesn't cost a bonus action to place it.

So for you with a hand crossbow, on the first round you can BA cast hunter's mark, then favored foe with your first attack. With a 16 Dex, you'll do

2d6+3 on the main attack, 2d6+3+1d8 on the dread ambusher, then add 1d4 to the first one that hits. Then on round two, replace the dread ambusher attack with a bonus action crossbow attack, unless you need to move hunters mark.

Foe Slayer states "as if you were concentrating on a spell". Wouldn't that disrupt Hunter's Mark?

The non-stacking nature of the d4s makes sense though. Thank you.

I think I have to agree with Mearle in that "loading" should have never been removed from CBE in the errata. It stops being a one-handed weapon when you go to load it. A Repeating Shot Infusion should be required to get the most out of it. That's clearly not the official ruling, though, so I'll go with it.

 

The BA from Dread Ambush feels like a twisting-the-knife kind of action. It would explain the 1d8 damage regardless of the weapon used. Just an extra movement with a successful attack that digs a little deeper, like backstabbing.

Using Dread Ambush with an ammo weapon -- does it require a third piece of ammunition? If so, is there an official ruling on how it gets around needing a second Item Interaction to load the third shot?

[BobtheWizard]

2 minutes ago, PixCO said:

Foe Slayer states "as if you were concentrating on a spell". Wouldn't that disrupt Hunter's Mark?

Oops. You are right. One or the other.

Quote

I think I have to agree with Mearle in that "loading" should have never been removed from CBE in the errata. It stops being a one-handed weapon when you go to load it. A Repeating Shot Infusion should be required to get the most out of it. That's clearly not the official ruling, though, so I'll go with it.

I don't know anything about the errata or Mearle's opinions. I think CBE should have said

• When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a loaded hand crossbow you are holding in your other hand

I think the intent was for the hand crossbow to be a secondary weapon, but without the qualifiers it just turns it into a fast shooter requiring two hands.