HERO system discovery

[pesukarhu]

1 hour ago, Malkavian Grin said:

Gotcha. That's a hard pass for me. Same reason I don't play GURPS.

Hero is definitely GURPS-adjacent. Maybe a bigger core, but then fewer special-cases later.

But if you're hard-no on GURPS character creation, Hero is about the same.

It's a hard sell for me these days, too. Some part of me thinks it's fun and still enjoys the character-creation mini-game, but it's hard to find the time. I'd rather do Marvel Heroic Roleplaying for supers, or something on the thinner side. Maybe try Masks or ICRPG Supers or TinyD6 Supers or just Risus it, etc. Or even Savage Worlds, which always feels like a lighter GURPS. But now I'm rambling.

[TheDude2371]

True in the fact that HERO, GURPS, and even M&M are a bit maths-intensive.

This is why I like the use of character generation programs, namely Hero Designer, GCS, and HeroLab, respectively. Saves a fair amount of the headache from doing all the calculations out, plus it puts everything in a nice, neat format.

I played HERO back when 4th ed was out (the Big Blue Book, cover by George Perez of DC Comics fame). I have material from 4th onward into 6th. As of now, if I were to start a game, I'd go 6th ed as well, as there were changes that made more sense (no more figured characteristics, so you could have a guy who's as strong as an ox, but crumples at a glancing blow... ranges are now actually given in relatable distances, and the like).

The one thing I'm sill not sure about is combat, using SPD and phases in a PbP environment. Same kind of goes with Palladium and the ungodly number of attacks per round that a person can get.

All in all, I think HERO is my favorite universal system. M&M can be a good second, as there are rules for using hit points or some form of damage tracker, lethal combat, etc. GURPS... to me would be an excellent choice for any genre, but there are still concepts I still can't get my head around... psionics and super powers for one, which is a shame as I'd love to use it for a high-scale urban fantasy/horror type game where psychic abilities and magic are available (though not the systems native magic system with set spells), but with that comprehension blockage in place, it's a no go.

[iamtim]

21 hours ago, pesukarhu said:

it sounds like you've read that one. Is it a good introduction?

I have, yes. It is a good introduction. What I found, though, is that there are some... differences. Like, for instance, I bought it because I was joining a HERO game with a bunch of LOOOOOOONG time HERO-heads. The Basic book seemed like a good place to start - because I wasn't going to buy the set of encyclopedias which are the full HERO rules - and I created a character. Of course, the character had powers, and some of those powers had drawbacks. So, I created the powers using what was in the Basic book. But when the GM and the other players looked it over, I was... assaulted (LOL) with questions of "why did you do it this way?" "why didn't you do it this way?" "you're supposed to do that this way", and so on and so forth.

It turns out that in making it basic, they've introduced differences... simplifying things and the like.

So, if you want to get into HERO, and you want to give the Basic Rulebook a try, I would say GO FOR IT. It's a fun system if you like crunch and math and mechanics. But if you're going to play with the Basic rules, play with the Basic rules; don't integrate the Basic rules into a full rules game, unless the GM is willing to apply some handwavium and accept the differences, or someone is willing to do a few character updates to bring your character up to par with the full rules.

I hope that makes sense. :)

 

[Excior]

On 10/22/2023 at 1:01 PM, cailano said:

There is a powers book that helps with that, but yeah. The need for books is the big barrier, IMHO. There's not a free way into the system that I'm aware of.

is Champions a hero system game?

[cailano]

25 minutes ago, Excior said:

is Champions a hero system game?

Yes, it's the original HERO system game.

[Papa Bear]

Some great work above on telling us about the HERO system, Champions, specifically... that's really what you play the HERO system for as the system was created for Super Hero adventures... but it turns out its very versatile and works for lots of different genres. I like the way you can design different 'types' of magic systems by how you 'build' the spells. Half a dozen casters in a game could all easily have different ways they cast spells.

Champions 1st, 2nd, and 3rd editions were all trying to develop the system and improving it each step of the way. It is a tangled mess though as parts of the system came out in different books. 4th Edition compiled it all together and made it so much more accessible to anyone who wanted to try it out without having to have an extensive knowledge of the fat mess it had been before.

5th edition came out 20 years later and really just revised a few things and expanded and explained power rules (mostly). The major change was something they call "Talents". In 4e, Talents just 'were'. there was a description of what it did and a point cost, like ambidexterity or eidetic memory (they were not 'powers' but a lot of them were rare traits that only a few people possess). 5th decided to use all their powers to 'develop/build' the Talents to arrive at a point cost. Some talents cost more in 5e over 4e but most of them they tried to force into the same costs for 4e, which was nice but seemed like they did a lot of work for a zero sum gain.

5e had a few more clarifications and a few changes in cost (like the Aid power which in 4e cost 5cp per d6 but went up to 10cp per d6 in 5e), but there were only a few of those changes. It was basically just 4e expanded and better explained.

5th Edition Revised was basically just 50 more pages of more explanations over 5e. There wasn't any cost difference so coming in now, if you have the option (and the cost really is still the same) you might as well get Revised. The extra side bars and clarifications can help. Being a Hero System nut (especially back then), I bought 5e then 5eR and really just ended up with the same thing, less $40 more dollars.

as mentioned previously, 6th edition made a lot of changes. They streamlined powers better, got rid of the Elemental Control (because it was a system that always generated THE MOST abuse of points than any other aspect of the game. A well designed EC could save hundreds of points and let you build insanely powerful, disbalanced supers. Good GMs put the kybosh on a power gamer's ECs efficiently, with good arguments, the way ECs were intended to be), and, as mentioned, got rid of the figured characteristics, which helped some on the math.

Champions Complete is what you probably want to go with if you are getting into Champions for the first time... or just want a more streamlined system. Hero Games (the company) is selling the PDF for just $20 and you can pick up the soft cover on both Amazon and Drivethrough RPG for $30.

Champions Complete is a vastly abbreviated version of 6e. 6e was two books, like 300 to 350 pages each (one for CC, the other for playing the game) where Complete clocks in at only 240 pages. It just doesn't worry about the vast explanations that 5th and 6th editions did, which made those editions so big (even 4th, to some extent in that it is quite a bit longer than Complete).

the Speed system is probably the most difficult thing to work with in the Play by Post format (and players at the table that take forever to decide what they are going to do because they haven't committed even one braincell to what they are going to do on their next action... DON'T let them play high speed characters!) and one of the most interesting aspects of the system. If you've ever played Starfleet Battles (the space combat game), its like the Impulse system, but with 12 instead of 32. If I ever run a game here, I'll likely require everyone to have a speed of 4 so that all the players go at the same time, then I can mess around with the speeds of the NPCs to mix in some flavor (like a speed of 2 for your mooks and minions so heroes basically get a 2:1 attack ratio over them). There are a lot of ideas and schools of thought on how to handle Speed in play by post.

If I were to run an introductory game, I'd do pre-built characters so that players can get a feel for how it plays and how their powers (with advantages and disadvantages) work. Maybe then kill 'em off and let the players build new characters or start something else entirely. (I did this with my FtF game group but my FtF group, for some strange reason, isn't too big on super hero RPGs... despite all of them having hundreds of comic books in storage)

And, if you ever get into playing Champions, you definitely want to invest in the Hero Designer program. It handles all of the math and will let you know when you are 'accidentally' cheating (because you misunderstood the rule for an aspect of a power -wink wink-)

Anyway, kudos to you if you actually read all of this. I'm sorry, I get longwinded sometimes.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Papa Bear (see edit history)

[cailano]

Great post @Papa Bear. Makes we want to pick up Champions Complete just for nostalgia's sake.

[Papa Bear]

Hehe. You probably should :)

Though, being Broke, I hate to suggest someone pump out dollars for something they might not get to use.

If you do get to play Champions, it'd probably be a good pick-up though. I know I barely even got to play but wore the HECK out of my 4th Edition GM screen 6 page insert with all the powers and skill costs. So much so, I don't even have it any more. Which isn't so bad since if I get to play Champs, its not 4e anymore (though I did write in the cost changes when 5e came out)

Of course, the more of us with Champions Complete, the more possible Champions games that might turn up!

@cailano didn't you (or still) run a champions game?

Hey, why didn't my 'mention' work?

Edited October 26, 2023 by Papa Bear (see edit history)

[cailano]

51 minutes ago, Papa Bear said:

Hehe. You probably should :)

Though, being Broke, I hate to suggest someone pump out dollars for something they might not get to use.

If you do get to play Champions, it'd probably be a good pick-up though. I know I barely even got to play but wore the HECK out of my 4th Edition GM screen 6 page insert with all the powers and skill costs. So much so, I don't even have it any more. Which isn't so bad since if I get to play Champs, its not 4e anymore (though I did write in the cost changes when 5e came out)

Of course, the more of us with Champions Complete, the more possible Champions games that might turn up!

@cailano didn't you (or still) run a champions game?

Hey, why didn't my 'mention' work?

Mentions are a little hit-and-miss. Sometimes, I can't get mine to work, either. I don't know why.

I did run HERO 4e for about ten years. Probably from 1994 until 2004. While I played a little bit of some other systems during that time, HERO was my go-to. I used a homebrew Champions setting for three campaigns, two long-running Fantasy HERO campaigns (each in a different setting), and one short campaign set in the Warhammer 40K universe. You really can use HERO for anything. That worked for me in the 90s because I was broke. All I needed was the one book and my imagination. It felt like an RPG cheat code.

I was a more passionate world-builder and adventure writer back then. I used to bring spiral-bound notebooks with me on my lunch breaks and do nothing but add detail to settings and write adventures. HERO was perfect for that because of the nearly unlimited freedom it provided.

These days, I'm a little lazier. I tend to use published settings and modules, which limits me to fantasy games for the most part. It's a shame, but I find that ideas just don't come to me as easily as they used to.

 

[eltorin]

I’m more of a 6e guy myself, but I’d be down for either a Champions or a Fantasy Hero game.

[RedMax]

I've been watching this thread, and I gotta chime in and stick up for the system.

5e revised is my favorite ruleset period. Yes, there is some math. The beauty of the system is that the small amount of extra work pays off in a combat system that is very specific. There's no debate usually about where someone is standing or what the modifier is. It just is.

I like the system so much that I often play scenarios from other games using Hero 5e. For example, I'll have the players whip up some low-level fantasy adventurers and then play through a D&D module. The system is that good.

If you prefer a really rules-light system, I totally understand that. To me, rules-light takes me down the spectrum to a more "group writing" feel. And there's nothing wrong with that, and I'm just voicing my opinion.

But if you want the feeling of, "No, the character is 3 meters northwest of the car, and the range modifier is this, and the cover is this, and here's your chance to hit," then this is the system to use. Bar none. I use a lot of hexmaps, and it veers into the wargame feeling--in a good way, and in PbP and email games it works.

Anyway, anyone who wants to dump on Hero 5e has to come through me, is what I'm saying. ;)

[Excior]

21 minutes ago, RedMax said:

I've been watching this thread, and I gotta chime in and stick up for the system.

5e revised is my favorite ruleset period. Yes, there is some math. The beauty of the system is that the small amount of extra work pays off in a combat system that is very specific. There's no debate usually about where someone is standing or what the modifier is. It just is.

I like the system so much that I often play scenarios from other games using Hero 5e. For example, I'll have the players whip up some low-level fantasy adventurers and then play through a D&D module. The system is that good.

If you prefer a really rules-light system, I totally understand that. To me, rules-light takes me down the spectrum to a more "group writing" feel. And there's nothing wrong with that, and I'm just voicing my opinion.

But if you want the feeling of, "No, the character is 3 meters northwest of the car, and the range modifier is this, and the cover is this, and here's your chance to hit," then this is the system to use. Bar none. I use a lot of hexmaps, and it veers into the wargame feeling--in a good way, and in PbP and email games it works.

Anyway, anyone who wants to dump on Hero 5e has to come through me, is what I'm saying. ;)

if were up to me Id just use the system from the 1980's loved it

[cailano]

37 minutes ago, RedMax said:

I've been watching this thread, and I gotta chime in and stick up for the system.

5e revised is my favorite ruleset period. Yes, there is some math. The beauty of the system is that the small amount of extra work pays off in a combat system that is very specific. There's no debate usually about where someone is standing or what the modifier is. It just is.

I like the system so much that I often play scenarios from other games using Hero 5e. For example, I'll have the players whip up some low-level fantasy adventurers and then play through a D&D module. The system is that good.

If you prefer a really rules-light system, I totally understand that. To me, rules-light takes me down the spectrum to a more "group writing" feel. And there's nothing wrong with that, and I'm just voicing my opinion.

But if you want the feeling of, "No, the character is 3 meters northwest of the car, and the range modifier is this, and the cover is this, and here's your chance to hit," then this is the system to use. Bar none. I use a lot of hexmaps, and it veers into the wargame feeling--in a good way, and in PbP and email games it works.

Anyway, anyone who wants to dump on Hero 5e has to come through me, is what I'm saying. ;)

RedMax, have you looked at the Champions Complete rules referenced above? What did you think?

[leons1701]

I love Champions, it is without a doubt my absolute favorite system for super hero gaming. That it mostly works for other genres is a bonus, though once you get low enough on the power scale that you're playing theoretically normal people I generally prefer GURPS. One of the big advantages Champions has in my mind is also one of its biggest weaknesses in PbP, the Speed system. You really need to limit the range of speeds allowed in PbP or somebody is going to be doing way too much waiting. I've actually had a couple of attempts at Champions here, sadly none ever got much past the first combat. But hey, if somebody wants to give it a try again, I'm game.

[cailano]

27 minutes ago, leons1701 said:

I love Champions, it is without a doubt my absolute favorite system for super hero gaming. That it mostly works for other genres is a bonus, though once you get low enough on the power scale that you're playing theoretically normal people I generally prefer GURPS. One of the big advantages Champions has in my mind is also one of its biggest weaknesses in PbP, the Speed system. You really need to limit the range of speeds allowed in PbP or somebody is going to be doing way too much waiting. I've actually had a couple of attempts at Champions here, sadly none ever got much past the first combat. But hey, if somebody wants to give it a try again, I'm game.

I agree. Limiting all characters to the same speed (effectively removing it as an attribute) would be essential for PbP gaming. A player who wanted to make a speedster in a Champions game could simulate that with powers anyway (i.e., an area effect on a punch to represent running around and hitting everyone.)

Powerful NPCs such as bosses might be able to have a higher speed in some cases, or some ability that would allow them to more effectively fight multiple PCs.