What's Your Favorite Super System?

[Roughtrade]

34 minutes ago, cailano said:

You still make the PCs pay for speed four

If all heroes/players have the same speed, that negates the ability to create speedsters.

Also, you don't get martial artists that are faster than the lumbering tank.

The great thing about Champions is the ability to simulate these.

[leons1701]

2 hours ago, Roughtrade said:

If all heroes/players have the same speed, that negates the ability to create speedsters.

Also, you don't get martial artists that are faster than the lumbering tank.

The great thing about Champions is the ability to simulate these.

Exactly. I think the main thing you have to do is enforce a relatively narrow speed band, ie everybody must be between 2 and 4 or 3 and 5 or something like that. It's actually recommended you keep speeds relatively close in tabletop anyhow, you just need to be even stricter in PbP. Still skeptical about the long term prospects of a Champions PbP game, but with enough player buy in, at least you should be able to get past the first combat, which none of the four Champions games I've played here has managed.

[Blue Firebird]

I don't think that you need the Speed chart to simulate speedsters. In a lot of games, and even in a lot of media, they don't necessarily get tons of actions compared to everyone else. They have a lot of area effects. Speedsters do things like punch everyone in the area at superspeed (an AoE strike), manipulate multiple things in the environment at high speed (again, AoE effect here), move long distances or up walls, across water, etc. (pretty easy), or set up defensive situations. All of these are pretty easy to simulate in, say, M&M, where you aren't getting more actions than anyone else.

[cailano]

15 hours ago, Roughtrade said:

If all heroes/players have the same speed, that negates the ability to create speedsters.

Also, you don't get martial artists that are faster than the lumbering tank.

The great thing about Champions is the ability to simulate these.

 

13 hours ago, leons1701 said:

Exactly. I think the main thing you have to do is enforce a relatively narrow speed band, ie everybody must be between 2 and 4 or 3 and 5 or something like that. It's actually recommended you keep speeds relatively close in tabletop anyhow, you just need to be even stricter in PbP. Still skeptical about the long term prospects of a Champions PbP game, but with enough player buy in, at least you should be able to get past the first combat, which none of the four Champions games I've played here has managed.

 

11 hours ago, Blue Firebird said:

I don't think that you need the Speed chart to simulate speedsters. In a lot of games, and even in a lot of media, they don't necessarily get tons of actions compared to everyone else. They have a lot of area effects. Speedsters do things like punch everyone in the area at superspeed (an AoE strike), manipulate multiple things in the environment at high speed (again, AoE effect here), move long distances or up walls, across water, etc. (pretty easy), or set up defensive situations. All of these are pretty easy to simulate in, say, M&M, where you aren't getting more actions than anyone else.

This is precisely the conversation I anticipated because it's an obvious problem that must be dealt with. My thinking is in line with @Blue Firebird. There are a lot of ways to simulate a speedster. Area effect on punch (I had a character with that exact power, which I creatively called "running around and hitting everyone") or intangibility as "Can't Hit What you Can't See."

@leons1701, that is a painful stat you bring up. Not even past the first combat? Ouch.

The problem with martial artists that @Roughtrade brings up is actually a little stickier than the speedster, IMHO. I haven't given it a lot of thought. It's the HERO system, though, there must be a way to do it without needing a high Speed attribute. Maybe a Damage Shield to represent counter-attacks or something.

[Roughtrade]

11 hours ago, Blue Firebird said:

I don't think that you need the Speed chart to simulate speedsters.

You may not *need* it, but the thing about Champions is that it made it so very easy to create a speedster character.

M&M has the "super speed" power and I feel like it is a complete mess. Out of combat it does a nice job of simulating "I can wash the dishes, do my homework and rebuild a car engine in an hour" but it doesn't sync well with combat.

[Blue Firebird]

4 minutes ago, Roughtrade said:

You may not *need* it, but the thing about Champions is that it made it so very easy to create a speedster character.

M&M has the "super speed" power and I feel like it is a complete mess. Out of combat it does a nice job of simulating "I can wash the dishes, do my homework and rebuild a car engine in an hour" but it doesn't sync well with combat.

That's because you need to build other effects to simulate the combat stuff. An AoE Damage effect, intangibility, Weaken Toughness to simulate vibrating through an object, and so on. Typically, you're not going to be doing all of those things at once (as even speedsters in the comics don't typically auto-win everything), so it simulates it pretty well. I've built and played speedsters before and was happy with them.

[leons1701]

Yeah, you can build speedsters in games that don't award extra actions, and they can be quite playable. But there's just something about the way that Champions handles it that feels better to me. To be fair, if you're going for a full on Flash type speedster, you'll be doing a lot of the same stuff in Champions, but Champions gives you more options for different flavors of speed.

[cailano]

And I'm not arguing that the Speed system is bad in over-the-table games, only that it would be a bit problematic in PbP, potentially causing big slowdowns in combat.

[leons1701]

Which I largely agree with, I was just brainstorming options that might allow some of the advantages of the Champions system without going full on "I have three times as many actions as you."

[yxanthymir]

Only played Fate and Powered by the Apocalypse in Superhero games. Both work really good.

 

Currently reading the rules of City of Mists, a super hero game, that uses PbtA. And the setting and rules look marvelous and really great. Definitively my style of game. Probably will try to run something in the future.

[ABlotOfInk]

I'm another Masks lover. I feel like in a superhero game where you want to try to emulate the wide spread of "power levels" and themes of a kitchen sink superhero world, focus on narrative mechanics is really key, especially if you don't want the player who chose to play Green Arrow feeling like the Superman player is outshining them. Admittedly I've only ever played M&M versus Masks, and M&M isn't known for it's amazing balance haha.

[cailano]

2 hours ago, ABlotOfInk said:

I'm another Masks lover. I feel like in a superhero game where you want to try to emulate the wide spread of "power levels" and themes of a kitchen sink superhero world, focus on narrative mechanics is really key, especially if you don't want the player who chose to play Green Arrow feeling like the Superman player is outshining them. Admittedly I've only ever played M&M versus Masks, and M&M isn't known for it's amazing balance haha.

I'm not as familiar with narrative systems so I ask this in ignorance... but if you're relying on narrative anyway, what is the difference between systems? Why Masks over something like Fate? Genuine question, I don't know the answer.

[Excior]

42 minutes ago, cailano said:

I'm not as familiar with narrative systems so I ask this in ignorance... but if you're relying on narrative anyway, what is the difference between systems? Why Masks over something like Fate? Genuine question, I don't know the answer.

I would say that it comes down to the mechanics of the game. I have just scratched the surface of FATE but I like the fact that in it you can play a hero at the height of his or her power and not work your way up. The game even allows for you to build your character during play. All you need to start is a High Concept

[ABlotOfInk]

2 hours ago, cailano said:

I'm not as familiar with narrative systems so I ask this in ignorance... but if you're relying on narrative anyway, what is the difference between systems? Why Masks over something like Fate? Genuine question, I don't know the answer.

No worries! Narrative mechanics are still mechanics! They still set up expectations and reward/punish certain behaviors, it's just usually focused on crafting a particular kind of story or theme or mood rather than being generally simulationist. Not that there isn't generalist narrative systems as well. I'd describe fate as a generalist narrative system, though I haven't played it merely read the basics, and Masks is specifically tuned to superhero teenage melodrama. A good genre specific narrative system assists you getting into the specific mindset for the game and helps you fulfill the "promise" of the genre it's trying to emulate.

For example, Masks has conditions that penalize your rolls. There are generic ways to relieve these conditions, but each condition also has a specific narrative requirement a player can fulfill to relieve them, and they've all been tailored to the idea that you're playing teenage superheroes.

For example; You can cure the insecure condition by acting rashly without checking in with your teammates, and the other conditions all have similarl cures that are destructive to the PC in a roleplay sense if they just tackle them straight on without help. They create a problem in-story as you relieve the mechanical problem. However, you could relieve your insecurity condition if a teammate uses a move called Comfort or Support, where your characters have a heart to heart. For all these methods, you have to actually narratively act out and rp the scene before the dice, which is one of the reasons these are still narrative mechanics.

This give and take helps solidify a theme within the mechanics themselves: it's a balance between the destructive teenage coping mechanisms, and learning to rely on and bond with others as a team is a healthier way of dealing with your trauma and emotions. That's a simplification obviously. There's other ways to cure conditions but the overall idea is that the slight pressure of conditions penalizing rolls is used to specifically steer players and the GM towards specific themes and scenes that fulfill the superhero genre expectations.

Something super generic like FATE doesn't apply that pressure because it's so open that the tools you have to solve problems are not so specifically tailored to a kind of game. It puts the weight of driving the narrative and meeting genre expectations totally on the players and GM's shoulders. More open, but less directed as a result. It's not a bad thing, as Masks being specifically themed does mean it's much less flexible for even small thematic or genre shifts like making it more violent/mature or having adult superheroes (where acting desctructively/rashly is less understandable than it is with teenagers.) FATE wouldn't have an issue like that, and some tables don't want or need the extra mechanics pressure to conform to the conceit of the genre they're playing.

 

Once again, I've only glanced over FATE's rules not played it so if I'm off base on my analysis please yell at me.

Edited December 5, 2023 by ABlotOfInk (see edit history)

[leons1701]

No, that sounds about right. If a Fate character acts rashly, it's because his particular Aspects support that kind of action, not because it's a genre expectation. How he gets out of the consequences of being rash also depends on his Aspects, as well as those of his friends (the other PCs).