Session 0

[Sapphic Reiver]

1 hour ago, Havelock said:

You guys are crazy....as if making one character wasn't enough work already.

Nah, it's just easy to have multiple ideas produced from a system with plethora of choice.

[Shadowstarr]

2 hours ago, samduke said:

@Shadowstarr

RE: Fake Sins and Licenses, I have compiled a list for my current character, I need to just verify how many different licenses I may need based on my list

<A>Fake SIN (Rating 4) (12)F 10,000¥
<A>Fake license (Rating 4) (12)F 800¥

Car Gun, Car Armor

Drone, Drone Gun

Cyberware, Bioware

Blade, Grenades, Assault Rifle, Heavy Pistol, Ammo
 

I do not want to assume your knowledge or understanding of gear availability/ legality ratings and the practical implications they have. So if I'm over-explaining stuff your already know I apologize. Anything with an R is restricted, it requires a license. F-rating stuff is forbidden. That means anyone not ON DUTY military, police, or corp security can not possess, transport, or use it. For Corp security, it gets a bit more situational as their authority is limited to their property. Anyways if you are not a an on-duty cop it deployed Military, having an Ares Alpha w/ the Gernade launcher, a fake SIN probably won't help you much are if you open carrying in a security-rated area higher than D.

Im not trying to be too harsh and a PITA to the fun factor of big guns big booms and the like. You can buy all manner of things but you really need to consider when to use them and the risk your taking. Your Hotspur with he non concealed LMG will not be crossing and border check points without some serious bribes, corp influence intimidation, or a shootout.

check out Shadowtech (1992, pg 101-108) for more info, it is old but its one of the better write-ups.

 

From shadowrun 5 corebook pg 419.

"Items are classified as legal, restricted (R), or forbidden (F). A legal item can be purchased freely, and owned, transported, and used—legally—without restriction. Of course, if you commit a crime with something that’s not normally seen as an illegal item—like killing a random passerby by applying blunt force trauma with a medkit—you will still be subject to prosecution normally, if they ever catch you. But at least you won’t face an extra charge for the piece of gear you used! A restricted item can be purchased, owned, and transported only under special circumstances. You are allowed to purchase and own a gun with the requisite firearms permit, and you can carry it with you with a special concealed carry permit. Of course, if you threaten someone or—heavens forefend—shoot someone with your gun, permit or not, you can expect to spend a long time in jail before or after having your permit revoked. Licenses and permits can be obtained through legal channels, as long as you’re a solid citizen with a legal SIN—of course, that goes for shadowrunners with fake SINs acquiring fake licenses, too. A fake license is connected to a fake SIN, and if one of them is exposed, the other becomes worthless (see Fake SINs, p. 367).

Forbidden items are never okay for anyone to own or buy or have—at least not for you, a private citizen. No amount of licensing or permits will make owning one anything like permissible in the eyes of the law. Don’t get caught, chummer."

To answer your questions:

Anything with a R rating needs a license, anything F doesn't because at doesn't matter?

[Essex]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:56 AM, DoNotFearToTread said:

Things seem to be swinging toward point buy, which I'm interested to use. Got a weird idea scratching at my brain for this. When were you thinking of setting the game? Post Azzie-exile? CAS in their place? I know the meta is smeared across a dozen books but a general idea of that might help me out.

That would be 4e then? Or would it just be 4e chargen with 5e setting?

 

[Shadowstarr]

12 minutes ago, Essex said:

That would be 4e then? Or would it just be 4e chargen with 5e setting?

 

setting wise going with Denver 2067.

using the 5e rule and chargen, choices explained in the character creation threaf

[Shadowstarr]

• A firearms license for the heavy pistol and R rated ammo.
• A concealed and carry license if you intend to carry it in public in a concealed holster.
• Drones: one license can cover both in their stock forms, that will not cover it's LMG
• Hotspur is normally fine it's not restricted. But, with the armor, it needs a license of some sort. depends on the nature of your Fake SIN that justifies why you have the restricted gear you use. Again the LMG is not covered.
• Augmentations (bio and cyber) can be one license for R-rated stuff. I did not go through the list to check the rating of everything you got.
• Fineblade believes needs its own. R rated.

 

Sorry, I didn't answer you clearly the first time. I just wanted to make sure you understood F-rated gear can't be licensed.

[Miss]

11 minutes ago, samduke said:

All good on f rating stuff, i may alter some of that gear, i thought there was a pop up style turret but i am failing to find it in 5e i know 3e had one

The rules for Pop-Up Turrets are on Pg 124 in the Rigger 5 book.

In Chummer5 they refer to them as "Internal" I believe, or Concealed maybe actually. I'm not entirely sure, I didn't write the code for turrets unfortunately, just some of the military vehicles.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Miss (see edit history)

[Miss]

A question for you @Shadowstarr, as this is literally not explained in any book I've ever encountered:

The SINner quality and Licenses. How would you like to handle this/them? The concern being obviously that as a Legal Citizen you would have legal access to items.

The best way I've seen done is "If your background/SIN directly justifies having a license for the items- then your SIN has a license for them. You don't have licenses for random shadow gear you buy, just things relevant to your background."

 

Edit: Also, sorry for asking another question- or two. Lol.

Do you consider all Non-Obsolete vehicles to come Prepackaged with GridGuide? And re: Licenses, is a "Driver's License" a fake license that's required to be purchased?

Edited December 30, 2023 by Miss (see edit history)

[Shadowstarr]

24 minutes ago, Miss said:

A question for you @Shadowstarr, as this is literally not explained in any book I've ever encountered:

The SINner quality and Licenses. How would you like to handle this/them? The concern being obviously that as a Legal Citizen you would have legal access to items.

The best way I've seen done is "If your background/SIN directly justifies having a license for the items- then your SIN has a license for them. You don't have licenses for random shadow gear you buy, just things relevant to your background."

That makes sense. However a SIN real / legit or fake can get burned. Rack up the wrong crimes or even accuations, get a felonly and those rights and privledges get curtailed quick.

Edit: Also, sorry for asking another question- or two. Lol.

Do you consider all Non-Obsolete vehicles to come Prepackaged with GridGuide?

I would assume so. but at the same time i've seen it suggest that GG could be super overbearing, and a poteltal weakness in your matrix security. I would hope an runner car would be set up to disconnect. I'm not sure the best way to handle it. Maybe if we have an aggreement that if the runners dont hack into the system and use it to do crime, the cops wont either to stop / catch them?

And re: Licenses, is a "Driver's License" a fake license that's required to be purchased?

I have always done it since it not super expensive, but i could see it reasonalble to assume it would be like a tiered class / endorsment tired to the SIN. With GridGUide being so widly used I dont the adverage passenger, vechile owner under 50, has manual driving experience. Truckers, commurcial drivers would require a license. But i dont want ot get too lost in the weeds here. gear/ augs magic , programs is enought to worry on the legality.

 

[Zaathun]

To add re: vehicles - GridLink and GridLink Override are the upgrade for use of GridGuide and the runner special upgrade to disconnect from it. Availablity in the book for the latter is F, but I believe that is because Canon Seattle (the place where the restrictions are written for) has GG required in Downtown.

[Shadowstarr]

49 minutes ago, Miss said:

The rules for Pop-Up Turrets are on Pg 124 in the Rigger 5 book.

In Chummer5 they refer to them as "Internal" I believe, or Concealed maybe actually. I'm not entirely sure, I didn't write the code for turrets unfortunately, just some of the military vehicles.

using hero lab,

There is an internal mod for weapon mounts, which keep the weapon from being seen from the outside unless deployed. Furthermore, there is a concealed mod which is the same as an internal mod but it's hidden from the inside when retracted and requires a roll when searching to find it. It would still be visible with deployed.

[Miss]

Mercifully I think this should be my final question that's Session 0 relevant:

"Drugs" and Addiction mechanics.

Please note the quotes there, as SR5 uses the Drug Rules for a lot more than just drug-drugs. BTLs. Hot-Sim hacking/decking. Alcohol. General simsense etc.

I think most would agree that SR5 (even just SR in general) has some of the most punishing and crazy Addiction rules possible in a game. And with their influence widespread enough that without understanding their implications in a game- a lot of people can find their characters suffering heavily without ever realizing it would be that way.

The book does specifically say that the use of Addiction Mechanics is up to the GM. So- probably a good thing to talk about.

As-Written the rules for addiction do silly things like:

You drink a second cup of coffee within the span of (soykaf Addiction Rating is 1, Threshold of 2, so within-) 10 weeks of the last time you had a cup. You have to make an Addiction Test. Since soykaf is both Psychological and Physiological this means that each time you drink that coffee for the next 10 weeks, from the last time you had a coffee, you're now making 2 Tests, Logic+Willpower, and Body+Willpower. If you do not get 2 successes on both of those tests- you are immediately given the Addiction (Mild) quality. Another cup of coffee, another test. Another failed test, your addiction worsens 1 step. Fail 4 Addiction tests (at worst- 5 cups) and you become a Burnout. Which, should you drink another cup, and fail that Addiction Test- you immediately lose 1 Body or 1 Willpower permanently. Drink a 6th or 7th cup of coffee within 10 weeks? More tests, more loss of Body or Willpower until one hits 0- then, well you're pretty much dead. From drinking a dozen cups of coffee within a 2 week span.

This is obviously way over the top as an example- but it gets worse when applied to more "game" relevant mechanics. Cops (or low-level/new-to-shadows PC) who need to compete with cyber'ed up Shadowrunners, gangers, organized crime etc might take a doss of Jazz or even Kamikaze just to even the playing field. If they use that combat drug twice in the span of a month they face a heavy addiction test.

 

With how powerful the mechanics of Drugs can be- there's no denying there needs to be some kind of eye kept to it. But I don't know if there needs to be addiction rolls for every simsense chip, every time you access Hot-Sim, every time you drink a coffee or a beer or try a drug during downtime as a means of character development.

For transparency, I am asking this because as I look at the "Media Trained Street Samurai" concept I'm building and getting into the final mechanics- I'm realizing that having what amounts to a Reality Show implant or reward a contestant with extensive response-enhancing cybernetics might theoretically be possible in some cases but that's a heavy investment to make (for the reality show and the character) especially when building a 'new to shadows' character. I'm looking at alternatives to pull the character through those first (many) Shadowruns to get to a place where they undergo the surgery and implantation in-game rather than just have it be a footnote in their backstory. Combat Drugs (or Combat BTLs in this case) are one such way. But the looming and endless series of Addiction Tests, reduction of stats etc is a massive turn-off from that solution.

Thus, I would like to put forward the discussion on the topic, as the main book says to do on pg 413. :)

[Shadowstarr]

4 hours ago, Miss said:

Mercifully I think this should be my final question that's Session 0 relevant:

"Drugs" and Addiction mechanics.

Please note the quotes there, as SR5 uses the Drug Rules for a lot more than just drug-drugs. BTLs. Hot-Sim hacking/decking. Alcohol. General simsense etc.

I think most would agree that SR5 (even just SR in general) has some of the most punishing and crazy Addiction rules possible in a game. And with their influence widespread enough that without understanding their implications in a game- a lot of people can find their characters suffering heavily without ever realizing it would be that way.

The book does specifically say that the use of Addiction Mechanics is up to the GM. So- probably a good thing to talk about.

As-Written the rules for addiction do silly things like:

You drink a second cup of coffee within the span of (soykaf Addiction Rating is 1, Threshold of 2, so within-) 10 weeks of the last time you had a cup. You have to make an Addiction Test. Since soykaf is both Psychological and Physiological this means that each time you drink that coffee for the next 10 weeks, from the last time you had a coffee, you're now making 2 Tests, Logic+Willpower, and Body+Willpower. If you do not get 2 successes on both of those tests- you are immediately given the Addiction (Mild) quality. Another cup of coffee, another test. Another failed test, your addiction worsens 1 step. Fail 4 Addiction tests (at worst- 5 cups) and you become a Burnout. Which, should you drink another cup, and fail that Addiction Test- you immediately lose 1 Body or 1 Willpower permanently. Drink a 6th or 7th cup of coffee within 10 weeks? More tests, more loss of Body or Willpower until one hits 0- then, well you're pretty much dead. From drinking a dozen cups of coffee within a 2 week span.

This is obviously way over the top as an example- but it gets worse when applied to more "game" relevant mechanics. Cops (or low-level/new-to-shadows PC) who need to compete with cyber'ed up Shadowrunners, gangers, organized crime etc might take a doss of Jazz or even Kamikaze just to even the playing field. If they use that combat drug twice in the span of a month they face a heavy addiction test.

 

With how powerful the mechanics of Drugs can be- there's no denying there needs to be some kind of eye kept to it. But I don't know if there needs to be addiction rolls for every simsense chip, every time you access Hot-Sim, every time you drink a coffee or a beer or try a drug during downtime as a means of character development.

For transparency, I am asking this because as I look at the "Media Trained Street Samurai" concept I'm building and getting into the final mechanics- I'm realizing that having what amounts to a Reality Show implant or reward a contestant with extensive response-enhancing cybernetics might theoretically be possible in some cases but that's a heavy investment to make (for the reality show and the character) especially when building a 'new to shadows' character. I'm looking at alternatives to pull the character through those first (many) Shadowruns to get to a place where they undergo the surgery and implantation in-game rather than just have it be a footnote in their backstory. Combat Drugs (or Combat BTLs in this case) are one such way. But the looming and endless series of Addiction Tests, reduction of stats etc is a massive turn-off from that solution.

Thus, I would like to put forward the discussion on the topic, as the main book says to do on pg 413. :)

I agree with everything you wrote. I have played in an RL game where the GM didn't bother with addiction rolls and the drug use for prolific. I completely understand the buff compared to the cost is a bit insane, at least for the combat drugs, and Psyche perhaps. I spent some time tonight reviewing the book and researching online and found something interesting. It is a slightly different interpretation of the exceptionally poor wording of the core book on the legit Shadowrun forums. The difference is that taking another dose within the window does not trigger an addiction test it resets the threshold for the addiction test at the end of the window. Let me try and show what like works like:

Ricki the Troll loves his kamikaze takes a does on a Friday the 1st. That starts the addiction test cycle. 11-9=2 weeks with a threshold of 3

• Week 1: you use Kamikaze.
  • End of week 1: since you used Kamikaze during the week, the threshold is 3.
• Week 2: you don't use Kamikaze.
  • End of week 2: the threshold goes down by 1, to 2. You then make an Addiction Test, which (for the sake of this example) you pass.
• Week 3: you don't use Kamikaze.
  • End of week 3: the threshold goes down by 1, to 1.
• Week 4: you don't use Kamikaze.
  • End of week 4: the threshold goes down by 1, to 0 - you're in the clear.

That seems how it works normal RAW.

Lets say Ricki take another does the next week before Friday when the cycle calls for a test.

• Week 1: you use Kamikaze.
  • End of week 1: since you used Kamikaze during the week, the threshold is 3.
• Week 2: you use Kamikaze.
  • End of week 2: since you used Kamikaze during the week, the threshold is 'reset' to 3. You then make an Addiction Test, fail, and get hooked - end of story.

Even though Ricki has a lingering threshold 3 at the end of week two, I think it makes sense he is done with the cycle as you should not get more addicted without taking more doses.

 

Seems like this system has teeth but isn't as punishing. Anyone got some feedback or another idea please share.

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Shadowstarr (see edit history)

[Miss]

16 minutes ago, Shadowstarr said:

Seems like this system has teeth but isn't as punishing. Anyone got some feedback or another idea please share.

It's definitely less punishing but by that used it really rewards Bingeing on drugs then fasting. Which doesn't seem 'right' I guess?

Looking at it from Game Design perspective- the game is made for Shadowrunners to Shadowrun. And Shadowrun games typically happen, though not always, as a Job that takes a period of time, then is followed by downtime of usually an unspecified length, then another job of short time etc until in a Campaign scenario things go wildly off the rails and it becomes a free-for-all with no jobs and you're just trying to prevent the Neighborhood/Sprawl/City/Region from going to hell. Under that premise having a system that tests for Addiction during what will normally be Downtime is a sound prospect. And I can appreciate that simplicity.

Reading over the book, and decipher through the word-salad, I think what you've written there is probably the Intended rules.

I still recoil from how punishing they are however.

Like- assuming an average Denverite. 3 in every stat giving a Dice Pool of 6 to resist Addiction and a average of 1.5 successes on the test. Going to their corporate job 6 days a week they have a morning coffee, they go out on the weekend and have a drink with friends, and at home watches blockbuster movies or plays matrix games for fun during the week nights; things I think we're all fairly familiar with-

Will be addicted to Coffee in 10 weeks, Burnout of Coffee in 9 months, and dead from Coffee addiction in just over a year and a half.
Addicted to Alcohol in 8 weeks, Burnout in 8 months, and dead from Alcohol addiction in 18 months.
Addicted to Simsense in either 8 to 16 weeks, Burnout in 8 to 16 months, and dead from Simsense addiction in 1.5 to 3 years.

I know we've all joked about being addicted to caffeine, and it is technically a 'thing'- but no one has ever or will ever die from drinking a coffee a day. And I know that we've all likely known someone in our lives who's an alcoholic and maybe even a severe alcoholic- but I hope we can all agree that drinking 1 beer or mixed drink in a week will ever make someone an alcoholic nor lead to their death by it.

Now yes. Those are materials we have a good idea of their real world effects. What about in-universe things that we have almost no parallel for?

Skillwires. The popular in-universe system by which executives or aspiring wannabes reach for. A legal piece of cyberware with no licenses or registration required. A piece of cyberware so ubiquitous that Horizon, Renraku and several others have made a monthly subscription service so they can Live Service your skills. If that average Denverite used the system just once a week? Going out to play a sport with friends one night or for a weekly meeting etc?

Addicted to Skillwires in 6 weeks, Burnout in 6 months, and dead by it just over a year.

 

But- if you were to look at it from the life of a Shadowrunner- you go on a series of runs for a job and pop a bunch of Jazz. Every combat you inhale a dose, and over the week you take a dozen hits. The Addiction Rating of 8 makes the tests happen every 3 weeks. The threshold is 3. So even though you just spent a full week overdosing yourself on a heavy combat stimulant (and we aren't even considering the different Grades of drugs as well)- the job is over and 3 weeks later, just before you need to make the test the Threshold is now 0 and no test is made. But even if you somehow didn't reduce the threshold- your addiction test is going to be during Downtime, where you can spend a point of Edge to reroll all those failed dice or just buy the successes etc.

The system makes mechanical sense only if characters are assumed to have bursts of activity and then long downtime of no activity at all where they lay low, drink nothing, engage with no entertainment, use no skills etc. But from the lens of a 'campaign' setting- it seems to just bog down everything. This- this whole post took me over an hour to write, I spent 15 minutes building a spreadsheet to plot out addiction timeline etc.... and I mean, as someone who loves Shadowrun, yes it can be VERY crunchy and that's why I love it- I think this might be a bit much. Lol

[Miss]

2 hours ago, samduke said:

@Shadowstarr I updated my rigger entry, and tagged you in the beginning on character #2, I wanted a Sidecar but I could not find one in SR 5 sources but it looks like there is a 4e version that does not really affect things, I noted the source and page.

I can help with that. :)

What you're looking for is the Improved Seating modification. Pg 164 Rigger 5, which includes in part:

"...this can mean rearranging the internal layout of the vehicle, extending it slightly, or even adding “external” seating, such as a sidecar on a motorcycle."

[Harding]

Complicated addiction rules, and there is a so much simpler way to deal with drugs: