Round 5: Hexenniel 3: BEES Opening Ceremony

[EmBark]

On Freedom from Religion

@volthawk @Lumaeus @Stygian

"I want clarify one thing, if I may, for the representative of the Eilif Dhaoine." Tiyansi brought up. "Patrons cannot and should not be able to make the Arkhive act unrestrained on Sansar. To my understanding the Charter protects those Local to Sansar already." She casts a look in the direction of Constance for confirmation.

"This amendment would simply serve to extend that same courtesy to those outside of Sansar. What we do not wish to see is that future Patrons use the Arkhive as a bludgeon against their neighbours. This amendment is one such thing that came out of consulting with others, including those on Sansar itself. The Arkhive Charter has already had amendments to ensure a Patron cannot force the Arkhive to adopt a different faith. There are limitations put on any spreading of faith here. Just like there are limitations put on any contracts the Eilif Dhaoine has formed with the Llort Society Protectorate. We ask that a similar limitation be put here. Not merely on behalf of the Llort Society Protectorate, but on behalf of many. On behalf of equity."

She gestures around the table.

"If there are any who share the Arkhive's religion who wish to spread it in a hostile manner, they could do so even with this amendment in place. And if the gathered representatives wish to define Sansar as the planet including its satellites, they are of course free to do so. For the part of those polities I have spoken with, none of that should prove an issue."

She gestures at the representative of the Eucrus Alliance.

"As for your concern of these two points colliding, I can see why you would be concerned. I assure you, as someone who has never been to Badal, I am not here to represent anything on behalf of the Eucrus Alliance. If their interests align with ours, that is a coincidence. It is my hope that theirs would align with those of the Arkhive, of Sansar, and of us all."

Edited April 3 by EmBark (see edit history)

[Stygian]

Residency

The Navarch waits patiently for those present to finish speaking. The arrival of Prisca—and sudden departure earns a few moments of disquiet from the kanmarran heir. 

 

“Scorcha speaks well, and I would next address her words. What I seek is not to weaken or manipulate the charter to our own ends—but to uphold its spirit—that all who come in good faith be offered a seat at the table. I will note that the question of residency was not of my design, nor that of the Llort, nor the Utopian, to my knowledge. It was a question prompted by that which has never happened before—offworlders settling on Sansar’s soil. That it came in concert with the Protectorate’s amendment is a matter of coincidence, stated with the weight of conspiracy.  When else would we weigh this matter, if not today?”

Freedom From Religion

“With regard to the first amendment.. My people are sensitive to this topic. For centuries, we lived as a refugee state, driven by a mandate to evolve, to rise beyond petty hardships and the limitations of nature, and to find our ultimate destiny as a people. We called it the Paradigm. Most of you know that we now follow a different path under the Prime of the Ilumined Utopian. No movement of faith is without loss. It is akin to grieving. Things are left behind with the old ways. Traditions are forgotten. The most ardent supporters of the old feel adrift. And that is with the blessing of leadership.”

 

“I do not presently believe that the ArkHive would force the will of Coedd on those who do not wish to share in whatever wisdom might be found there. And thus I would suggest we address these fears.

Enshrine in the Charter that no faith shall be spread by the ArkHive in foreign lands without the permission of its governing body. Whether it be Coedd, or whether the ArkHive one day takes to an unreserved love of the Bloodfather, or whatever else. At that point, it is little more than restating current practice to reassure those who do not share the same confidence as those assembled here.

 

Should that still be found distasteful by those assembled today, the Eucrus Alliance will vote against the amendment in its entirety. Assuming that we are allowed that vote, of course. That matter is still undecided.” Tuahine smirks at the thought, all of the flowered words being quiet for nothing. 
 

Fair Labor Practices

“Regarding the second item, there is little to be said that has not already been broached. We all know what gave rise to this amendment. I have little to add but our support.”

[Kythia]

17 hours ago, Stygian said:

The choice made here in regards to our candidacy is one that will reflect Sansar’s foreign policy as a whole. To say that those who live on the planet’s soil may not qualify as residents of Sansar—that is a broad proclamation with far-reaching effects, that I implore those present to consider. The ArkHive does not exist in a vacuum. If such a restriction is passed, it will be because its supporters believe that we are different, and not deserving of the same rights amidst a non-partisan body.

Siobhan starts to say something but realising the Navarch hasn't finished yet goes quiet again.

17 hours ago, Stygian said:

Because this matter is so essential both to the ArkHive and to the core of what it means to be of Sansar, I would ask that Queen Constance be allowed to express her vote on the matter. If that in itself requires a vote, I would ask who among us feels that it is just that the ArkHive not be granted a voice. And let it be a matter of public record.”

Siobhan raises her hand at this, holding it up long enough for it to be seen, but waits for a break in the conversation before responding to it.

8 hours ago, Stygian said:

Enshrine in the Charter that no faith shall be spread by the ArkHive in foreign lands without the permission of its governing body. Whether it be Coedd, or whether the ArkHive one day takes to an unreserved love of the Bloodfather, or whatever else. At that point, it is little more than restating current practice to reassure those who do not share the same confidence as those assembled here.

 

Should that still be found distasteful by those assembled today, the Eucrus Alliance will vote against the amendment in its entirety. Assuming that we are allowed that vote, of course. That matter is still undecided.” Tuahine smirks at the thought, all of the flowered words being quiet for nothing. 

I'm not sure if it's permissable to change the amendment after introducing it, it's not come up before. If it is, though, that sounds like a perfectly fair adjustment. Coedd still abstains though. She glances behind her and gets a nod Unless the arkhive state they're in favour or opposed to the alteration of course. Errrrm, what else?

Yeah, you she gestures at the Navarch asked who thought the Hive shouldn't get a vote? I do. It's a little weird I know, but the charter is the will of the bees, at least as I understand it. It could have been set up so the ArkHive could vote on amendments, but they didn't set it up like that. Queen Constance understands this situation a lot better than me and if she says I'm wrong then listen to her not me. But the bees didn't give the Hive a vote and presumably they knew what they were doing when they did that. At least that's my understanding, again listen to the Queen over me on this matter. Because she gestures at the Navarch again the spirit of the charter isn't that all who come in good faith be offered a seat. It's just...not. There's a clear split, an immutable split, between those who get a seat and those who don't. The spirit of the charter is emphatic and unalterable on that point. Who counts as a resident, sure, that could be up for debate. But the fact that not everyone gets a seat at the table? That's not at all the spirit.

Also, as a general point, why are we referring to conversions as "hostile". If I take a soapbox to a corner and start preaching and some people listen and agree - that's not "hostile". This terminology is really leading. "Unwanted", "uninvited" even "irritating": I'd allow all of these. But talking of preaching as being "hostile" is just hyperbole and it really seems like an attempt to...to frame the conversation.

Edited April 4 by Kythia (see edit history)

[EmBark]

Tiyansi briefly converses with Pako, then rises and nods at Siobhan and the Navarch.

"If the Arkhive is in favour or not opposed to the alteration, and such an alteration would please the gathered representatives, then the Llort Society Protectorate supports this change."

Edited April 4 by EmBark (see edit history)

[volthawk]

Scorcha lets the conversation play out a little after her statements, and nods along to some of the more convincing parts, before using the current break in conversation to say her piece.

"Thank you all for your comments, but I am not swayed. It is in the best interests of my people to vote against all of these amendments and suggestions."

She pauses, considering whether or not to continue. "And for the record, the Charter does not give local members special protection beyond those that all members have - that the Library treats their holdings as inviolable. That does not, however, mean that a bad actor cannot use Patronage in ways that act against the interests of other members - after all, isn't that why you suggested these restrictions in the first place? And either way, it is already a protection that both local and visiting members benefit from, so expanding the influence of the latter and diminishing the options of the former in the name of equal protection falls apart under scrutiny, as I see it. Local status is not a matter of securing protection, but expanding your country's influence over the Arkhive - access to borowing their property, preference when it comes to who the Arkhive establishes closer ties to, and a vote in these proceedings. Now, I would be a hypocrite to say that acting in your country's interests is a bad thing, but let's not pretend this is a matter of cosmic justice or ensuring fairness, shall we? You wish to limit the spread of Coedd worship because you have your own beliefs you want to push, and you want Local status expanded because it makes it more likely that your people will qualify and thus give you more control over the future of the Arkhive - and your access to their services. Frankly, if you said as much at the start I would have been more inclined to go along with it."

[Rocket Relm]

The couple representatives of the Purifiers are comparatively quiet in their watchings of the proceedings. Unlike previous times, there is little for them to say, and they make their documentation elsewhere. They do mark an Against vote in regards to the 'freedom of religion' act, for obvious reasons. Converting outside Sansar is a thing that the Purifiers might want done, even if only in their own lands outside Sansar. Though spreading Coedd elsewhere would be a bonus on top of that, because the religion itself is appreciated.
 

 

Edited April 7 by Rocket Relm (see edit history)

[Frostwander]

While both Lucél Thiércine and Puala Lomchat are present for the debate and amendments, Ms. Thiércine does not weigh in, at least in public; that matter is the purview of her counterpart. Puala listens to the viewpoints offered, and gives a brief perspective regarding the matter of residency.

"Not all of us here on Sansar can trace our lineage as far as others. Almost none of us at all beyond a couple millennia, many much less than that. Some of us," he nods toward Coedd's representatives, "don't even have 'lineage' in the same manner.

"Even those recently outside polities that control Sansar territory - like Illumined Utopian - are governing over largely people of Sansarite descent already dwelling in those regions, despite the seat of government being off-world. I posit, any Elect polity having a significant population on Sansar for an noteworthy duration - a year or more - is sufficient for those individuals to be considered residents, in matters of voting, should the Arkhive allow."

In regards to the amendments, Caipe Ushere places its vote for the following:

Freedom From Religion Amendment: Against
Fair Labor Practices Amendment: In Favor

[FriendlyHeadcrab]

Preoccupied with the announcement and merriment, the STAR RATS envoy is late to the discussion.

 

On "Freedom From Religion"

"This is not the amendment that we hoped you would propose. Frankly, the STAR RATS little affected in this Amendment. We do not see undue allowances nor a weakening of structure. Therefore, we abstain from the vote."

 

On "Free Labor Practices"

"The STAR RATS are not in the business of giving commentary on how other countries construct their labor force. While we encourage fair working conditions, we do not believe in influencing moralities that may be considered subjective on our neighbors. For these reasons, we abstain."

 

Residency Debate

"The first order of business is one of interpretation," says Constance without preamble. "There are two tiers of Membership: Local Members (for residents of Sansar) and Visiting Members (for everyone else). So says the Charter. The question has been raised whether a "resident of Sansar" would include any polity that has significant population on the planet* or one which holds the bulk of its population on the planet or one which originates from the planet--though I pray we don't decide on this, as it would be a conference in itself to determine what that means. So, a question for everyone to consider. Does having a significant population on Coedd make a polity a "resident of Sansar?" Though there is no mechanism for deciding in the Charter, I will exercise my authority to determine the exception: every polity represented in this room, including the one which could be excluded by the decision, holds a vote (excepting, as always, the Arkhive). Simple majority is sufficient.

"Alas, here things become complicated. The term 'Residents of Sansar' was never truly defined. If simply living on Sansar were sufficient, wouldn't every individual have a vote? Not just countries? Unfortunately, there are implications and expectations that define this rule.

With awareness of these concerns, it is best to consider the context. The following line of the charter states, 'Should a Visiting Member be awarded Patronage OR complete and maintain a Hive (5-action GP), they will permanently be considered Local, so long as they retain Membership.'. This provides clarity. People can become local by being awarded patronage or completing a hive. But makes no mention of gaining new land on Sansar. If this were the intent, I believe it would have been addressed here.

In fact, I believe it must be the case. Otherwise, an invading army might slay a long-time local member, and then take their vote at the very next chance. These rules exist to protect the Locals, and encourage those coming from far-off to gain a vote through collaboration and productive methods, rather than brute force. This interpretation is far more in-character for the Arkhive that I know and love.

Judging by the existing precedent. Many of our most influential members have been from off-world. And these members are now considered Local by definition. It seems that the system is working.

Residents of Sansar are those native to this world at the time when elect titles were given. Who maintain the shared history and culture that grew this planet while isolated. They were given the initial titles of "Local", which will not be taken away without the loss of membership.

For those coming from outside, clear paths to membership are defined in the charter, which has already been utilized by the benefit of several of our patrons."

Edited April 7 by FriendlyHeadcrab (see edit history)