Group-centric CharGen

[Jedaii]

Champions is no easy slice of cake, even for TTRPG vets. I myself have gone back and forth with the system for too long. But, I'm thinking if the experienced players can assist me with the not-so-experienced HERO system folks, we can make this work. I have the majority of what's offered for sixth edition and am more than willing to 'give players notes' on their sheets. So if you get stuck, just ask on your sub-forum or here 🙂

[Jedaii]

Also, I'm crunching 2-3 settings together into this alternate, grimdark Freedom City. If you want something added or have a question about something regarding 'canon' Freedom City, please post it here. 

[Llyarden]

So I have a couple of questions, one to do with the setting and one to do with the mechanics.

So, first - what kind of tone are you aiming for - in particular when it comes to lethality?  I don't really remember where Champions falls in the gamut between something like M&M (nonlethal unless you specifically go for the kill or have houserules in play) or something like D&D (you have to actively try to be nonlethal and can still kill people with nonlethal damage if you go overboard).

And second, er...exactly what system are we using? 😆  I have Champions Complete and HERO system 6e, but people keep talking about Champions 6e and I'm not sure if that's a different thing lol.

[RedRajah]

I remember Dark Champions being an option back in the day (at least during 4E, got a few of those books).  But I'm fine with four color with a touch of grit (kinda like the ol' JLU cartoon) if we're taking requested for tone. 

I know I'm gonna need help with my sheet in turning my boy over to 6E.  While I have the 6E handbook, the math of HERO was always a pain to me and seeing what translates to what from 4E to 6E may frustrate me in places 🤧

[Jedaii]

18 minutes ago, RedRajah said:

I remember Dark Champions being an option back in the day (at least during 4E, got a few of those books).  But I'm fine with four color with a touch of grit (kinda like the ol' JLU cartoon) if we're taking requested for tone. 

I know I'm gonna need help with my sheet in turning my boy over to 6E.  While I have the 6E handbook, the math of HERO was always a pain to me and seeing what translates to what from 4E to 6E may frustrate me in places 🤧

I'm hoping HERO vets like Papa Bear and others can help me with your sheets. If nothing else, post the 4e/5e superhero and we'll bring them into the 6e-Age! 

On 'a touch of grit' - read below ...

39 minutes ago, Llyarden said:

So I have a couple of questions, one to do with the setting and one to do with the mechanics.

So, first - what kind of tone are you aiming for - in particular when it comes to lethality?  I don't really remember where Champions falls in the gamut between something like M&M (nonlethal unless you specifically go for the kill or have houserules in play) or something like D&D (you have to actively try to be nonlethal and can still kill people with nonlethal damage if you go overboard).

And second, er...exactly what system are we using? 😆  I have Champions Complete and HERO system 6e, but people keep talking about Champions 6e and I'm not sure if that's a different thing lol.

We're using 6th edition Champions, so if you have Complete, you have pretty much all you need: it's a condensed version of the bulletproof books HERO is known for churning out and I for one love it! 

Tone-wise: expect lethality from your PCs' foes, much more so than the 'Four-Color/Silver-Age' feel of Mutants & Masterminds (although that system could be modded for lethality, as well). So your PCs should be either hard to hit, or hard to hurt, and I listed Benchmarks for defenses/Resistances on the CharGen forum (I'll also post a generic superhero template for 'research purposes').

Things in this Freedom City start out deadly BUT as your PCs start winning over more and more turf, the tone will begin shifting from 'Grimdark Iron-Age' to an era of optimistic heroism (the Golden Age) along with zany and bizarre adventures (the Silver-Age). That's the plan anyway, but maybe one or more PCs take us in another direction: it's a shared story, right?

[RedRajah]

Elemental Controls are no longer a Thing in 6E (but Multipower is), correct? 

[Jedaii]

2 minutes ago, RedRajah said:

Elemental Controls are no longer a Thing in 6E (but Multipower is), correct? 

Correct, but there's ways to convert EC to 6e.

[Papa Bear]

Boy Jedaii is right about the 'bullet proof' 

4th edition was about 350 pages

5th edition was almost 600 pages

and 6th was so big, they split it into two books, the character creation book at over 450 pages and the playing the game book which was over 300, nearly 800 pages in all (about 780)

Champions complete, for playing with 6e rules, clocks in at less than 250.  If you've got Champions Complete, that's the book to use.  Only worry about the twin books if you have a serious question.  Heck, I put my 6e books in storage after I got Complete because you don't really need the 'FULL' book.

Anyway, I'll be glad to help where I can.  I also have the Hero Designer program for 6e so I can plug in your powers and have it spit out results... because honestly, sometimes its really hard to build a power and the program really knows the rules and, on more than one occasion, I've discovered that I was 'cheating' (not intentionally, mind you.  I just didn't know the rules worked 'that way' in certain cases).

 

Yes, calculating powers can be a pain.  But its not quite as hard as you might think.  

FIRST: Add up the cost of all the ranks you put into the power (by ranks, I mean how many dice the power will use).  

SECOND: Add up all of the power modifiers.  You'll get a fraction like +3/4 or something.  Convert that to a decimal (0.75) and add 1 to it (1.75)

THIRD: Multiply the totals from the First and Second steps.  This total is your "Active Points" in the power (usually important because GMs help control the player builds by the Active Points... this systems version of Power Levels.

FOURTH: Repeat the second step but with the power limitations (again, a fraction like -1/4)  Also convert to a decimal and add 1.

FIFTH: Divide the total from the Third step by the total of the fourth to get the "Real Cost" of the power.

EXAMPLE: We want a Blast power at 10d6.  Blast costs 5 CP (character points) per d6, so we spend 50 points for a 10d6 Blast.  Our character is kind of wimpy so we decide to add Double Knockback (+1/2) to help keep villains away from us and, of course, Armor Piercing (+1/4) for a +3/4 which becomes 1.75 when converted to a decimal.  That total is 87.5... oopsie, that means the Active Points is 7.5 higher than the GM is allowing for the Active Points (40 - 80 Jedaii said).  Keeping our calculator on hand, we drop 1d6 (to a 9d6 blast which costs a base of 45 points), multiply by 1.75 and get, yay, 78.75 ~ 79.  

     Now, we don't want to pay 79 points so we find a power limitation that we can live with.  We choose Only in Alternate Identity because we 'change' into our hero form, like Hulk or Iron Man, but that means we can't use the power in our normal ID (Bruce has to 'hulk up' and Tony has to put on his armor).  The Only in Alt. ID is only a -1/4 limitation because... well, duh, super heroes.  We won't be chasing down villains in our civilian IDs (but there might be a time when you are in your civilian ID when bad things happen and you can't use your power.  Captain America, Superman, Wonder Woman... they might be trying to protect their superhero ID (although, I think all of them are public IDs at this point) so might not want to use their power, but can if they need to.

     All that said to move us to the converting our limitation of -1/4 to a decimal, which is 1.25 after we add +1.  Our total of 79 divided by 1.25 = 63.2, probably rounded down to 63.  That's still pretty pricy, but saves us 16 CP!

 

What it's not; We do not take our total cost of 45 and combine our fractions (+1/4, +1/2, -1/4) to get +1/2.  That actually would cost more CP (67.5, rounded up)

 

Sorry I rambled a little (I can do that) but if you remove the rambling and just look at the numbers... yeah, its still complicated but its not terribly horrible.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Papa Bear (see edit history)

[Llyarden]

With regards to the 'Active Points' benchmarks, is that the total number of Active Points you should be able to have...well, active...at any given point, or is that limit per power?  (For instance, if you have two powers with 50 active points apiece, would that breach the limit?)

Edited March 28, 2023 by Llyarden (see edit history)

[KingGoblin]

This system looks so complicated.  Is it mostly complicated in the character generation, and easy to play, like GURPS, or is it complicated all around?

[coreal]

2 hours ago, KingGoblin said:

This system looks so complicated.  Is it mostly complicated in the character generation, and easy to play, like GURPS, or is it complicated all around?

I'd say it's mostly complicated in character generation, but plays pretty smoothly.    They're very similar systems in terms of complexity, with Hero being more powers/abilities focused and GURPS more skills focused.  I've actually found Hero to be a little easier in character generation as it's a bit more aligned in the points system across different uses, while GURPS can get a little fiddly when you introduce any of the different magic systems.

 

I too have Hero Designer for 6e, so I can help people check builds and the like.

[Papa Bear]

6 hours ago, Llyarden said:

With regards to the 'Active Points' benchmarks, is that the total number of Active Points you should be able to have...well, active...at any given point, or is that limit per power?  (For instance, if you have two powers with 50 active points apiece, would that breach the limit?)

Active points is 'per power'.  You can be flying along with the max active points, firing off an attack using a power that is built to the max active points while your forcefield (or other defense) is 'up' at the max active points.

Active points doesn't really come into play (much) after character creation unless you have a variable power pool or Multi-power.

[Llyarden]

I know you can do that mechanically, but I've seen M&M games where the DM has said 'you can only have X number of points in powers active at any one time, total,' I could see the same being applied to Champions.

[Papa Bear]

4 hours ago, KingGoblin said:

This system looks so complicated.  Is it mostly complicated in the character generation, and easy to play, like GURPS, or is it complicated all around?

I agree with @coreal.  The system can be confusing and complicated during character creation but plays pretty smoothly (except maybe the Speed/actions per turn thing, which can be strange for those who have never played with a system like that before.  I've played Starfleet Battles for decades, as well as Champions, so I kind of like it.  It works a lot better in face to face gaming as a character with a high speed, but only an occasional poster would hold up the game as everyone waits for them to take their action.  I've thought that if I ever run a Champions/Hero system game I'd require everyone to have the same speed to make turns smoother with block initiatives.  But that takes a major aspect of the Champions/Hero system out of the game.

There are some rules that can be kind of confusing at first but only because no other system really deals with them.  Mainly, the two types of damage in terms of seriousness.  Stun and Body.  

Stun is light, momentary, superficial damage.  You are knocked out when reduced to 0 stun, but it has no long term effects on your character.

Body is the deep, penetrating injuries that cause lasting harm and take time to heal, such as a big gash through your belly, a broken bone, a concussion, etc.  

Because of these two types of damage, there are two ways to PERFORM the damage.  Normal (stun) attacks and Killing Attacks.  Normal attacks deal a total of a d6s roll in Stun Damage.  So, if you have a 10d6 damage attack, and the facing numbers equal 32, then 32 points of stun damage is done and your target's "Non-Resistant Defenses" reduce that damage by their number.  Normal attacks also deal Body Damage, but at a reduced effect.  After adding up the total stun damage on the roll, you look at the numbers rolled and count body as 1s = 0 Body each, 2s-5s = 1 Body each, and 6s = 2 Body each.  This amount is also reduced by non-resistant defenses.

Killing Attacks are much different.  First they are much more expensive.  Secondly, the killing attack damage rolls are added up as Body Damage... though a 3d6 Killing Attack would cost you 45 base points, which would be a 9d6 normal attack.  You calculate the 3d6 roll, which might be 12.  That would deal 12 body which is reduced by Resistant Defenses.  Then you roll a d6-1 and multiply it by the body... so if you rolled a 4, -1 = 3 x 12 = 36 stun, again, reduced by Resistant Defenses.  

Knockback is also dealt by normal attacks.  The body that you take is resisted by a 2d6 roll (or 1d6 if you are flying)

Most everything else is pretty normal to RPGs.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Papa Bear (see edit history)

[Papa Bear]

14 minutes ago, Llyarden said:

I know you can do that mechanically, but I've seen M&M games where the DM has said 'you can only have X number of points in powers active at any one time, total,' I could see the same being applied to Champions.

You are right.  But typically that is not a Champions thing unless the GM specifically says it is.