General Q&A

[Steel Warrior]

1 hour ago, mole75 said:

I'm sorry I was mistaken. You (originally - now edited) quoted a post that referred to the discussion on the changes of the succubus from 3.0 to 3.5. And to avoid confusion, I pointed that out. It was in no way an attempt to discredit your point. You are perfectly right about your point about the extra limbs, but that was not the post you appeared to repsond to. 

As a demon, I invoke PVP combat! Since it has to be consensual and stuff. LOL J/k.

Side note.
@Michael Since I am looking to enhance my Abyssal Drake with dragon feats and such. Are the Generic UA classes ok to use for that purpose?

Is the Warhsaper template compatible with the Special polymorph form?
So if I am in my human shape, I can warshape my drake head and breathe fire, or sprout claws or wings?

Edited May 20, 2023 by Steel Warrior (see edit history)

[Ryfte]

Just in case people were unaware of it, Chapter 2 in Savage Species has a number of tables with actual Level Adjustments as well as the Appendix 2: Compiled Tables (pages 205~214) for numerous creatures that are not listed elsewhere. For most I am aware that this is already common knowledge but I figured I should mention it here regardless.

[Ryfte]

Yes, a double post...

For everyone making their progression tables remember:

Outsider BAB (All HD) : +1 per HD

Outsider Saves (Initial HD) : +2.5

Outsider Saves (Subsequent HD) : +.5

So your 2nd HD grants outsider saves of +3 (2.5 for the 1st one +.5 for the 2nd).

Your 3rd HD is still a +3 (2.5 for the first +.5 for the second and +.5 for the 3rd = 3.5, round down).

Your 4th HD is a +4 (2.5 for the first +.5 for the second and +.5 for the 3rd +.5 for the 4th = 4).

Etc.

Basically, you can also just think of it as starting with 2, add 1 for the second HD, and then add one for every additional 2RHD you take (if that makes more sense for you). The math behind it uses the fractional / decimal numbers to be clear but you don't have to. *shrug*

 

[mole75]

On 5/19/2023 at 5:26 PM, mole75 said:

It seems I was remembering wrongly. They only did it with Monster Manuel 1 and not with 2 and then they did it in MM 3??? Well if inconsistency is expected then this is the way 🙂 

 

I have looked at a few other books and it seems the same (in)consistency is prevalent in all the 3.5 material: There are level adjustments in fiend folio and heroes of horror, but not in the fiendish codex I or II 

I think I've figured out some of the confusion. My version of MM2 is from 02 and thus 3.0. So it makes sense that it doesn't have the LA. However Wotc did publish a update to 3.5 for the MM2 and I found it lying in an obscure folder on my computer. There, the monsters from MM2 are all given LAs. But I would be quite wary of them if I were the DM, there doesn't seem to be much consistency between the LAs given and the actual power of the monsters.

 

But if anyone is interested here they are: There are 8 demons, 3 Devils and 3 yugoloths in the book:

Name	CR	HD	LA
Abyssal Maw	2	2	+2
Abyssal Skulker	2	2	+2
Abyssal Ravager	5	3	+5
Jovoc	5	4	+5
Palrethee	8	8	+6
Zovvut	10	9	-
Jarilith	10	13	-
Kelvezu	12	18	-
Advespa	3	4	+4
Amnizu	7	9	+5
Malebranche	9	16	-
Marraenoloth	10	10	+5
Arcanaloth	17	12	+7
Yagnoloth	10	10	+6

 

[TheFred]

I was using that for the Arcanaloth. And, well, there's about as much consistency as there is for LAs in any book. 🤷‍♂️

(LAs are typically too big, since they didn't seem to realise how good class levels are and/or perhaps wanted to discourage monster characters, but also different authors seemed to have very different ideas and in fact there's some evidence to suggest that some of them didn't even understand ECL themselves, so higher-HD monsters sometimes get higher LAs even though it should be the other way around, if anything.

Case in point: The Ultroloth is ECL 23 despite being weaker and having a much lower CR than the ECL 19 Arcanaloth - even though lore-wise it's not meant to be, Ultoloths are the bosses! - though at least here the actual +5 LA is lower, it's just you have a lot more HD but worse abilities.

But, of course, this is gestalt - where LAs matter a lot less - and we're all forced into at least 12 levels of monster "stuff" so everyone gets at least a regular single-track character and nobody can really optimise the gestalt bit properly so it all... kinda works out? Or, you just decide not to care that much, I guess 🙂)

[Michael]

5 hours ago, Steel Warrior said:

As a demon, I invoke PVP combat! Since it has to be consensual and stuff. LOL J/k.

Side note.
@Michael Since I am looking to enhance my Abyssal Drake with dragon feats and such. Are the Generic UA classes ok to use for that purpose?

Is the Warhsaper template compatible with the Special polymorph form?
So if I am in my human shape, I can warshape my drake head and breathe fire, or sprout claws or wings?

 

I am a huge not fan of the generic classes.  Generic classes make for a generic character.  Not clear why generic classes help any more or less than regular classes with respect to feats.

 

Good question on the warshaper, the answer is no, it is not compatible...or rather, if used the special is no longer special, and becomes detectable, dissmissable etc.

[mole75]

On 5/21/2023 at 2:32 AM, TheFred said:

I was using that for the Arcanaloth. And, well, there's about as much consistency as there is for LAs in any book. 🤷‍♂️

(LAs are typically too big, since they didn't seem to realise how good class levels are and/or perhaps wanted to discourage monster characters, but also different authors seemed to have very different ideas and in fact there's some evidence to suggest that some of them didn't even understand ECL themselves, so higher-HD monsters sometimes get higher LAs even though it should be the other way around, if anything.

Case in point: The Ultroloth is ECL 23 despite being weaker and having a much lower CR than the ECL 19 Arcanaloth - even though lore-wise it's not meant to be, Ultoloths are the bosses! - though at least here the actual +5 LA is lower, it's just you have a lot more HD but worse abilities.

But, of course, this is gestalt - where LAs matter a lot less - and we're all forced into at least 12 levels of monster "stuff" so everyone gets at least a regular single-track character and nobody can really optimise the gestalt bit properly so it all... kinda works out? Or, you just decide not to care that much, I guess 🙂)

I agree. The whole CR, LA, ECL system is inherently flawed. It helped balance the leadership feat, but the effects were really awful.

In contrast, I do like the way it's handled in Pathfinder 1e. There, the monsters have a level (often more or less corresponding to their HD). A level 5 monster is as powerful (in theory at least) as a level 5 character. There are not any (official) rules about monster classes in pathfinder though, but that could be house-ruled.

[TheFred]

The Pathfinder “system” is essentially the same, except instead of having any official rules for LA or assigning any and risking getting them wrong, they just said “eh, figure it out yourself”. Thing is, there isn’t really a better way than LA; it actually works OK at small values and where monsters map onto PCs better but there are deeper problems with e.g. the way casters work that don’t help (it’s pretty hard to make a caster monster for example).

[Lunermist]

I do have a small question about house rules,
 

Quote

• To go up a level, a Prime Bound Fiend must eat it's body weight in freshly killed good aligned creatures of at least half it's level (round down). After eating, you go into a cocoon state for a number of days equal to your new level, during which time you are kind of helpless.

I thought I saw somewhere that our actions may lead us to become alignments other then our original but I cannot seem to find where that was. but if I'm remembering correct it'll be very hard to be both good and meet the eating requirement. But I could just have imagined it.

[Michael]

2 hours ago, Lunermist said:

I do have a small question about house rules,
 

I thought I saw somewhere that our actions may lead us to become alignments other then our original but I cannot seem to find where that was. but if I'm remembering correct it'll be very hard to be both good and meet the eating requirement. But I could just have imagined it.

 

Not so much your actions as your intentions, You will have opportunity to become more mortal and less fiendish which might result in an alignment shift, and can also change your eating habits. Having said that much like a "good" vampire, there's plenty of rp opportunity for a "redeemed" fiend who still craves human flesh.

[W0LF]

I assume Voice of the City ACF violates your language rules? Or does it not as it's not actually speaking the language, just conferring an understanding?

[Michael]

15 minutes ago, W0LF said:

I assume Voice of the City ACF violates your language rules? Or does it not as it's not actually speaking the language, just conferring an understanding?

It does violate the rules, no voice of the city.

In general simple concepts, like "I am hungry", "drop the weapon", players will be OK with. Beyond that I think sense motive to work out what someone else is trying to say and perform for trying to tell someone something.

[Ryfte]

To preserve the concept of the language barrier along with the hedge gate wipe should we not select extra languages for our Int mods or having the Speak Lanugage skill? Instead perhaps simply being able to pick them up faster if we have those, i.e. a positive Int mod / Speak Language skill points? Effectively leaving the slots blank if you will. 😄

[Michael]

30 minutes ago, Ryfte said:

To preserve the concept of the language barrier along with the hedge gate wipe should we not select extra languages for our Int mods or having the Speak Lanugage skill? Instead perhaps simply being able to pick them up faster if we have those, i.e. a positive Int mod / Speak Language skill points? Effectively leaving the slots blank if you will. 😄

Leaving a few slots blank is probably a good idea, certainly allowed.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Michael (see edit history)

[IantoIdris]

I'm not applying to this, as I'm in enough games as-is, but I remember having a lot of fun in your last fiends campaign playing a yugoloth cleric. Best of luck to you this go around!

Edited May 24, 2023 by IantoIdris (see edit history)