General Q&A

[Ryfte]

So you just want to offset bad hit dice on the other side of the build with D8's basically.

[Steel Warrior]

2 minutes ago, Ryfte said:

So you just want to offset bad hit dice on the other side of the build with D8's basically.

Yeah, it would make the characters a little more durable. Especially with some demons have LA +7

Some players are going to be picking demons/devils that have no LA so you have no idea how many free levels they get

Edited May 19, 2023 by Steel Warrior (see edit history)

[coreal]

I think part of the goal is that these characters will have all sorts of abilities... but be actually rather fragile for quite a few levels.  And I can't think of any demon/devil that is going to have no LA and be able to meet the 12 HD/LA minimum.  Only ones out there with no LA only have a single HD if memory serves.

[Ryfte]

I think making that type of alteration would lead to LA discussions, which were never very balanced and are very much a teeter totter of highs and lows from one creature to the next, heh. Also, remember we're gestalt. So you're not any less fragile than a normal character you made would be. In fact you are going to have a bunch of stuff, even at level 1, from your fiend so you should be MUCH more survivable / powerful than any bog-standard other prime would be! Hah! 😄

 

29 minutes ago, coreal said:

I think part of the goal is that these characters will have all sorts of abilities... but be actually rather fragile for quite a few levels.  And I can't think of any demon/devil that is going to have no LA and be able to meet the 12 HD/LA minimum.  Only ones out there with no LA only have a single HD if memory serves.

I think, technically what Steel is talking about is literally demons and devils with NO LA. Normally they can't be selected but in this case if you select a demon with 18HD for example you could theoretically make a monster class progression for it despite it not having a level adjustment. That would then have full HD for the demon side. *shrug*

Edited May 19, 2023 by Ryfte (see edit history)

[Michael]

4 hours ago, TheFred said:

I was reading the Yagnoloth entry (in MM2) and I have questions, some of which are even relevant.

How does the Yanoloth wield a two-handed weapon in one hand? And, with its weak arm?

The Yanoloth's weak arm has effective Str of 10 and the Yagnoloth gets no Str bonus with it, but if it got, say, a Str bonus (e.g. from a magic item, whatever) would it still apply to the weak arm too?

The 3.5 update booklet says that the Yagnoloth's stunning blow's duration is now based on its "damage roll" (rather than damage dealt) and ambiguously says this is "1d6, without Strength modifier"... does that mean that only the base role is used to determine the duration, now? That would make sense, because stunning someone for, like, 30 rounds does seem kinda rough. Do no other bonuses apply? Presumably stuff like Improved Natural Attack would, though?

In other news, I was also debating an Arcanaloth. I guess I empathise more with "grasping, wheedling manipulators" than semi-musclebound asymmetrical brutes? That they are scribes and record-keepers makes me think an Archivist might be appropriate, or perhaps some kind of scroll-based Artificer? Given the lack of XP, would the old 5gp = 1 XP make sense? Or I could just forgo crafting (beyond the Craft Reserve, maybe), since Artificers are plenty good as it is. Sadly it doesn't seem possible to access the one scroll-based PrC (Unbound Scroll) without being a Dragonmarked gnome.

 

Might I suggest the Yagnoloth is too stupid as a concept for further consideration?  I have no answers to your questions which would not involve a coin toss.

I'm not a fan of the artificer as I said, also the Arcanalolth already gets full sorcerer progression so you really want arcanist on both sides of the aisle?

[Michael]

1 hour ago, Steel Warrior said:

Yeah, it would make the characters a little more durable. Especially with some demons have LA +7

Some players are going to be picking demons/devils that have no LA so you have no idea how many free levels they get

No. 

 

You already get survivability from the gestalt.  I'm not going to replace LA with HD.  I mean seriously.

[Michael]

Sorry if it wasn't clear, if the monster has no LA then it's not an option.

[TheFred]

3 hours ago, Michael said:

Might I suggest the Yagnoloth is too stupid as a concept for further consideration?  I have no answers to your questions which would not involve a coin toss?

What’s stupid about a weird red brute with bat-wing head decorations and one lopsided massive arm? 🤔

[Michael]

56 minutes ago, TheFred said:

What’s stupid about a weird red brute with bat-wing head decorations and one lopsided massive arm? 🤔

Its the mechanics that kill it, not the looks.  One big arm dude with a bunch of dodgy ill explained abilities, it's not great.

[mole75]

I've made the erinyes class and think I'm done. But if any of you have critique, comments or questions that you might want to add, then please don't hesitate. 

 

My own (however small) objections to the class are:

The large starting ability boosts. However a total of +8 is on par with what the succubus gets. 

The quite dead levels at levels 13-15

The useless Spell Resistance 🙂

 

 

[mole75]

I was flipping through my Savage Species book and there were a few discrepancies that caught my eye. After a short search I realized that there's quite a difference between some of the fiends of 3.0 (and SS) and 3.5. 

What it means is that some of the classes in SS does not correspond to the monsters in the 3.5 MM. This includes at first glance vrock (better stats, more HD and higher LA), barbed devil (no LA any more), kython (better stats)

 

I don't know if that's something that need to be addressed, but now it's brought to very one's attention at least.  

[Ryfte]

Something I'd like to point out in case prospective players are missing it; applying the half-fiend template from the MM1 to anything allows it to qualify as a fiendish submission. Michael did specify this in house rules but its easy to miss. As long as it meets the minimum of the ECL12 rule you can create a fiend for submission from virtually anything. This can allow for some pretty fun and interesting fiendish chimeras if you're so inclined. 👍

 

10 hours ago, Michael said:

Sorry if it wasn't clear, if the monster has no LA then it's not an option.

Also to clarify, other than Savage Species, which lists the monstrous classes for numerous creatures without any actual listed LA, right? So as long as its in there, despite not having an LA in other publications, its acceptable.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Ryfte (see edit history)

[mole75]

29 minutes ago, Ryfte said:

 

Also to clarify, other than Savage Species, which lists the monstrous classes for numerous creatures without any actual listed LA, right? So as long as its in there, despite not having an LA in other publications, its acceptable.

As far as I remember, from MM 3.5 they started to add LA to all monster where applicable. So all 3.5 monsters should have the LA entry as the last entry of their stat block. 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by mole75 (see edit history)

[Ryfte]

14 minutes ago, mole75 said:

As far as I remember, from MM 3.5 they started to add LA to all monster where applicable. So all 3.5 monsters should have the LA entry as the last entry of their stat block. 

 

 

If you could let me know where this is it would be greatly appreciated. I was unaware of this ever happening. I know that some monsters were given LA but was unaware of any blanket update that took care of more than a small number of additions, even from the MM1. I know that some publications included some but there was never a real standard or publication that listed an LA for all entries, at least as far as I am aware of. *shrug*

Edit: Note, I could very well be completely wrong about this. One of the things my wife loves to point out whenever possible, heh.

Edit 2: To be clear, making sure we're all on the same page, "LA: --" is not no LA, its simply not playable. For it to actually be no LA and playable it would have to be "LA: +0" or something similar. At least technically. 😄

Edited May 19, 2023 by Ryfte (see edit history)

[mole75]

It seems I was remembering wrongly. They only did it with Monster Manuel 1 and not with 2 and then they did it in MM 3??? Well if inconsistency is expected then this is the way 🙂 

 

I have looked at a few other books and it seems the same (in)consistency is prevalent in all the 3.5 material: There are level adjustments in fiend folio and heroes of horror, but not in the fiendish codex I or II