ooc Tank/Crew Naming and Customization

[Paxon]

Great, seems like folks are mostly happy with name situation. @dalamb I'm pretty sure nothing I put there really contradicts your history writeup, so that should pretty much stand as-is (well, maybe a small edit on the last sentence). 

 

Onto mechanics: I'm going to reproduce below the relevant section from Tank/Crew rules section. These show what the "Crew" character based on a non-gestalt level 10 technician has in terms of feats, talents, and inventions class feature. As a reminder, when your character is driving, shooting, commanding, loading, engineering the tank, you are able to use these abilities as if your character possessed them, as well as your own abilities if they make sense.

The Crew

Crew Feats, Talents, Inventions

The crew has four collective talents from their martial tradition, and an additional 7 from adept practitioner progression. The crew gains feats as a standard (not gestalt) character, and has 5 feats. I have pre-selected the feats and talents, however they are up for negotiation once the crew is selected.

 

Feats

Vital Strike

Siege Engineer

Siege Gunner

Heroic Resolve

Extra Combat Talent: Force Redirection Technique

 

Combat Talents

Sniper Sphere

• Push Shot (snipe)
• Targeted Assault

Warleader Sphere

• Synchronized Strikes

Brute Sphere

• Smash

Scout Sphere

• Advisory Scout
• Find Gap

 

Inventions

1. Independent Invention, which gains 5 total Improvements. Base invention is Gargantuan Vehicle

• Additional Capacity: Siege Engine (cannon)
• Covered
• Metal Parts
• Metal Parts x2
• Improved Weapon: Cannon. Gains Speed Lever (using Inventor's Insight)

2. Grand Gadget (which are built into the tank)

• Machine Gun x3 (12 uses per day)

3. Grand Gadget (which is built into the tank)

• Permanent Gadget: Launcher
• Permanent Gadget: Hook and Pully
• Weaponized: May mount a weapon, PCs to provide

 

First: anyone have strong feelings about making changes here? I'm also going to make these adaptable, basically allowing you to retrain/recraft these with some time and effort put in. I came up with the talents and feats as likely useful for the tank and for the crew to use, but you may have some different ideas. A few of you I think already have scout sphere and find gap, for instance. Though I think find gap is always useful for the gunner and advisory scout would be nice for the commander. Anyway, we can make changes if people want. Or we can roll with it now and modify later.

 

The inventions can be mod-able (and definitely are by the rules), but the independent invention part is pretty much set, and I think the x3 Machine Gun grand gadget is also an important part of the tank armaments. Though I could see you reducing number of uses possibly and adding something else. The other grand gadget is probably the most modable, which is basically 4 free uses of a launcher (launching detonators and/or alchemical splashies) and the Hook and Pully, which I thought might be nice for grapple-lining enemies and other utility uses. It also includes the top mount combining this whole thing with another provided weapon. If you want to come up with a different invention to be here, that is okay. You could still use launchers and hook pullies at the cost of a gadget. 

 

Second: Other armament concerns. I have that the PCs are to provide the mounted weapon up top. This is in addition to the technician machine guns, which have a very different way of attacking than, say, the LMG and HMG listed in the firearms section. Upon further inspection of all the related costs, it would be quite a big buy to ask even you all collectively to come up with the funds for putting a machine gun up there. So I'm going to gift a 4000gp discount for a weapon to mount on top of the cupola, which the commander has primary access to, but could be used (a bit awkwardly) by someone else atop the tank. That'll get you a free LMG, or some of the way toward an HMG. Or you can make it something else. You can combine any other spare funds you all have for the difference. (If I don't get a decision or we can't agree by game's beginning, I'm just going to make it an LMG).

 

Likewise, the tank can make its own basic rounds. I'm also going to give you two each of the specialty tank rounds (HE, AP, Canister). Any beyond that, you'll have to buy, acquire, or craft.

[dalamb]

I will revise Tanya's background to match the new story. It won't be big changes, but except that I want to put in a version of the tank naming history. 

My head is spinning with respect to tank properties. I has assumed the commander (and backup commander) would need to take Scout with Advisory Scout, Find Gap, and Identify Rhythms; is the idea that if everyone with scouting abilities is taken out, you still want others to have these basic scouting abilities?

I wonder if that is a general principle for tank talents. They are there to let non-specialists fill in if the specialist is taken out?

[Paxon]

44 minutes ago, dalamb said:

My head is spinning with respect to tank properties. I has assumed the commander (and backup commander) would need to take Scout with Advisory Scout, Find Gap, and Identify Rhythms; is the idea that if everyone with scouting abilities is taken out, you still want others to have these basic scouting abilities?

I wonder if that is a general principle for tank talents. They are there to let non-specialists fill in if the specialist is taken out?

In a way. It is a mix of what made sense for me, in how the tank would operate, and yeah abilities that exist on it such that anyone acting as gunner would be able to use Sniper Sphere, anyone acting as commander would be able to use some basic Scout and Warleader abilities, anyone driving would be able to use Brute sphere for some extra combat maneuver goodness. So if Tanya has Scout, Advisory Scout, Find Gap, ID Rhythms, that's fine she has them for her own use even away from the tank. But if you have some of those with a plan to primarily use them from the commander position, you could always take a few different talents knowing you'll have access to 3 of those when operating the tank. Think of them as things all of the crew cross-trains on as being one of Tia's Tankers. 

[Djacob91]

Yea, the point of the Tank Talents and Feats, as far as I understand it, is to allow anyone to use them at need. For example, Martin can drive the Tank if needed, but without the Brute Sphere option, playing chicken with monsters is suddenly a much less useful ability simply because he isn't trained to roll over people like a linebacker. Or that would be the case except it's a Tank Talent, and so I could use it anyway. 

 

As for the Talent selection, I am fine with it. It seems to cover the bases fairly well. The main thing I would want to see added on if we can is some means of regaining Martial Focus. I know that some people have various means of doing so, and can spend their own instead of the Tank's when using various actions, but having the Tank have such an option would allow for easier turn over on some of its abilities like Deadly Shot. The Sniper talent, Focusing Reload, would probably be the easiest to drop into the 'normal' rotation of actions for the Tank. I would probably pull either a Warlead or Scout talent for it, but I'm not married to the idea. Alternatively, pulling the Vital Strike feat out for another Extra Talent feat is also an option. That all being said, double checking the count of talents that the Tank should have (listed as 4 from Martial Tradition + 7 from levels) puts us at 10 selected talents out of 11, which means we could just drop it in.

 

As for the Technician Inventions selection, this also makes sense for a tank. The main thing I would want to modify at some point is the main cannon. While the faster reload is rather important, and I wouldn't remove it even if I could, there is the option for explosive shells that do aoe damage with reflex saves to avoid on normal attacks, and an option to increase damage(1/2lvl d6) next turn at the cost of a move action this turn. Perhaps that is something that we can mess with later though, we are suppose to get another Invention when the Tank levels up to 11 after all. One thought that might be worth considering now though, would be to swap one of the Machine Guns for a Chemical Sprayer. They both do 5d8 damage(1/2lvl d8) with a Reflex Save for half, but they use different damage types and shapes. The Machine Gun is B/P damage with a medium(200ft) line, while the Chemical Sprayer is an elemental damage type with a close(50ft) cone. Technically you can pick the damage type of the Chemical Sprayer, but I would probably go with fire damage for it because it would be a flamethrower which makes the most sense in context. Another option would be to grab the Medical Insight(no idea what to swap for it, probably Vital Strike for the Extra Insight feat) which would allow us to swap one of the gadgets for 4 basic 3d8+10 healing med kits. I know that Doc has the whole healing bit covered, but I do like having the ability to heal at least a little bit spread around.

[Paxon]

17 minutes ago, Djacob91 said:

That all being said, double checking the count of talents that the Tank should have (listed as 4 from Martial Tradition + 7 from levels) puts us at 10 selected talents out of 11, which means we could just drop it in.

Huh, good point. Im must have miscounted, or what is more likely, had assigning that last talent on the back-burner so long I just forgot to do it before posting all this. Guess there is one more talent to add. I did add a couple special position actions that will give the tank back martial focus, and also there is the following around Martial Focus:

"Stronger Together

When operating the Tank, members of the Crew (the PCs) may use the features and talents of the Crew when interfacing with the Tank, or when interfacing with the Crew while members are operating the Tank. They may use gadgets, they may create or modify inventions, they can use the sniper sphere talents when firing the gun, etc. In some circumstances they may also use the saves of the Tank if doing so makes sense.

 

In addition, the Tank Crew has a Martial Focus. Members of the Crew may use the Crew's Martial Focus when operating the tank, or they may use their own Martial Focus. They may not use the Crew's Martial Focus when taking their own independent action (i.e. standing on top of the tank and making an attack roll against a creature trying to get in). Actions they take which restore Martial Focus may also be used to restore the Crew's Martial Focus while operating it, if applicable in some way (subject to DM discretion)."

 

It was was hidden a bit in the description of the "Crew" class. So you can use your own MF on behalf of the tank, and you can also use your own actions which restore martial focus to restore the Crew's MF. Between those two additional abilities, you may not need to worry much about the Crew MF.

[Djacob91]

Ah, might have missed the point about moving a person's martial focus up to the Crew Martial Focus, instead of only down. That would generally make it easier. Perhaps Breaking Blast(full damage to objects) or maybe Athletics Sphere for the movement speed increasing option?

[Paxon]

55 minutes ago, Djacob91 said:

Ah, might have missed the point about moving a person's martial focus up to the Crew Martial Focus, instead of only down. That would generally make it easier. Perhaps Breaking Blast(full damage to objects) or maybe Athletics Sphere for the movement speed increasing option?

The main cannon is a siege engine so it already does full damage to objects (I actually had breaking blast slotted in at first instead of Targeted Assault before I realized that)

[PigLickJF]

I would submit that for the Sniper sphere, instead of Targeted Shot, we take Fragmenting Shot (if Pax okays it, since it's Legendary). Targeted Shot really only gains a few points of damage, and we already have Synchonized Strikes to deal with DR/Hardness. Fragmenting Shot seems much more fitting for the main battle cannon (gory description aside), and given its high base damage, will give it some nice oomph when the situation is right.

Edited June 21, 2022 by PigLickJF (see edit history)

[Arklytte]

8 hours ago, Djacob91 said:

Ah, might have missed the point about moving a person's martial focus up to the Crew Martial Focus, instead of only down. That would generally make it easier. Perhaps Breaking Blast(full damage to objects) or maybe Athletics Sphere for the movement speed increasing option?

Heh, ironically, I took Swift Movement from athletics for when Doc's driving.  I also took Moving Target (to give her a miss chance when Doc's driving).  I figure, he's just that good behind the wheel.  🙂 

But having that as an option (more speed) for anyone who drives her isn't a bad thing either.

That said, I'd almost rather spend any talent changes on things to make her hit harder, like the Sniper sphere talents you mentioned.  Obviously, having movement options is nice, but if we're in battle, Doc will almost certainly be driving, so it's covered, but having the tank be able to hit harder/better is always a good thing.  It makes more sense that she would have 'sensors to aid faster/more precise shooting' than something to constantly keep her engine revved higher.

That's my $.02, anyway.  🙂

[PigLickJF]

On 6/20/2022 at 10:08 PM, PigLickJF said:

I would submit that for the Sniper sphere, instead of Targeted Shot, we take Fragmenting Shot (if Pax okays it, since it's Legendary). Targeted Shot really only gains a few points of damage, and we already have Synchonized Strikes to deal with DR/Hardness. Fragmenting Shot seems much more fitting for the main battle cannon (gory description aside), and given its high base damage, will give it some nice oomph when the situation is right.

Turns out I have a bit of signal up here, so I'm going to sneak in this post. I didn't see any feedback for my suggestion here, anyone have thoughts? 

[Paxon]

4 hours ago, PigLickJF said:

Turns out I have a bit of signal up here, so I'm going to sneak in this post. I didn't see any feedback for my suggestion here, anyone have thoughts? 

I was a little on the fence with this one, because yeah that is some serious extra splash damage. But hey, it feels appropriate for the tank. I'll allow it.

[Paxon]

Current proposals 

Switch Smash to Hammer: Ark suggested this in the balance thread. Given a tweak to how some combat maneuvers in the tank works, this one makes a lot of sense

Focusing Reload: An easy option to regain tank's martial focus. Could be added or replace another talent. Characters may use their own MF restoring actions to restore the Tank/Crew's MF, so it may not be necessary.

Fragmenting Shot: Nice splash damage on a kill shot, and I'm allowing it.

Swap one Machine Gun for a Chemical Thrower: Basically, you are adding a flamethrower (4 uses, I suppose it could also be cold or acid) to the tank, at the cost of reducing Machine Gun uses to 8 instead of 12.

 

Since there is an additional Talent slot that I never filled, I'm going to go ahead and add Fragmenting Shot, unless anyone objects. I'll also switch Smash to Hammer, again unless there is objection. 

In the above case, Focusing Reload would need to replace something. For that and for swapping into the Chemical Thrower, I would want majority buy-in, so at least 4 approvals for that here or on discord.

[Djacob91]

Smash to Hammer: I say sure. Ark is the primary driver, and I don't have particularly strong feelings towards either talent over the other. So, whichever he prefers.

Focusing Reload: I say nah. Looking over things it seems unnecessary and probably not worth giving up a different talent for.

Fragmenting Shot: I say sure. A nice bit of AoE on the main gun will be nice. I would be interested to know your opinion on using it with other AoE options like canister shot or Explosive Rounds(assuming that we add said improvement in the future).

Chemical Thrower: I say sure. I like the idea of having a different shape on it instead of just the line option, just gives more versatility in our secondary weapons for the tank. Oh, and I would go with fire as the damage type, it seems more fitting than the other options in universe to have some homemade napalm than a tank full of liquid nitrogen or something.

[Paxon]

19 minutes ago, Djacob91 said:

Fragmenting Shot: I say sure. A nice bit of AoE on the main gun will be nice. I would be interested to know your opinion on using it with other AoE options like canister shot or Explosive Rounds(assuming that we add said improvement in the future).

It would need to be a direct target of the Deadly Shot to be able to 'splode. So you could pop an enemy with an Explosive Round direct hit, but not with the splash damage from it. I don't think the canister shot would actually be valid for Deadly Shot, it behaves more like a spell effect with a save, rather than having an attack roll. Just damage everything in a 30' swath out to 300'.

[Djacob91]

Sounds fair enough.