Zalthorin, Grell Patriarch, Wizard, Binder

[8w_gremlin]

Zalthorin

Character sheet (WIP)

Background: Zalthorin, a Grell, was a rare anomaly even in this bizarre world. Born from the dark, oppressive caverns where the boundaries between reality and nightmare blur, Zalthorin's origins are shrouded in mystery. While most of his kind are content to dwell in the shadows and prey on unsuspecting creatures, Zalthorin had a different calling. Drawn to the arcane mysteries of the Underdark, he sought to harness his unique abilities and explore the unknown depths.

Zalthorin's journey through the Underdark took a fateful turn when he wandered into a portal that led him to the Abyss, the chaotic and malevolent plane of existence. The corrupting energies of the Abyss had a profound effect on him, warping his once-curious nature into something darker. He found himself drawn to the abyssal magics and secrets that lay hidden within the plane, and over time, he became a fiendish denizen of Hell.

The transformation altered his appearance, his once-iridescent form now bearing a darker cerulean hue, and his tentacles twisted into a more menacing and serrated form. His intellect, however, remained intact, and he harnessed his newfound powers to command other Grells that he encountered in the Abyss. Zalthorin's presence was both terrifying and alluring, drawing the wayward Grells to his banner. Together, they formed a peculiar and unholy alliance.

Intriguingly, Zalthorin's newfound power and influence caught the attention of Lady Tessina. Recognizing the potential of this collective of Grells, she initiated negotiations with Zalthorin. In exchange for their loyalty and service, Lady Tessina promised them access to her vast troves of magic, knowledge, and power. She also provided them with a steady supply of food, a precious resource in Zalthorin's Mind. Zalthorin saw this as an opportunity to further his own quest for arcane mastery and eagerly accepted Lady Tessina's offer.

Now, Zalthorin and his Grell followers are setting up a Grell colony within the Abyss under Lady Tessina's watchful eye. Their presence in the Abyss, once a harrowing twist of fate, has become a strategic partnership aimed at securing the magical and dark knowledge that the Abyss has to offer. Their quest for power, fueled by curiosity and the hunger for knowledge, has taken them to unexpected depths of darkness, where Zalthorin's leadership and cunning are crucial for their survival and ambitions.

Description: Zalthorin's appearance is a disconcerting sight for anyone who encounters him. A huge floating, pulsating brain suspended in mid-air, he has no eyes but perceives the world around him through his otherworldly senses. Ten long, barbed tentacles extend from his central mass, each serving as both weapons and tools. His body is a mottled mixture of iridescent colors, which seem to shimmer and shift as he moves.

Personality: Zalthorin is driven by a relentless curiosity that sets him apart from other Grells. He is not content to merely drift through the Underdark preying on lesser creatures. Instead, he is a seeker of knowledge and arcane power. Zalthorin is both cautious and inquisitive, approaching new experiences with a mix of apprehension and fascination. He values intelligence and is a natural problem solver, always looking for the most strategic solution to any challenge.

Despite his unsettling appearance, Zalthorin has a certain enigmatic charm that draws others to him, and he often finds himself forging unusual alliances with other adventurers. He understands the value of cooperation in the unforgiving depths of the Underdark and is not averse to forming mutually beneficial relationships.

Summary: Zalthorin, the inquisitive Grell, is a denizen of the Underdark who defies the typical nature of his kind. With no eyes but an insatiable thirst for knowledge and power, he floats through the dark abyss, his ten barbed tentacles and sharp beak ready to confront whatever mysteries the Underdark throws at him. Driven by an unwavering curiosity, Zalthorin is a problem solver and an enigmatic figure, often forming alliances with other adventurers who appreciate his unique abilities and intellect. His journey through the depths of the Underdark is one of self-discovery and a relentless pursuit of arcane secrets.

 

Table: Fiendish Grell/Feral Grell/Grell Patriarch/Soul Eater || Wizard/Binder/Anima Mage

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	Spells per Day
						0	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
1st	+1	+0	+2	+2	Eater Body, Buoyant, Sightless, Meal Grab
					Summon familiar, Scribe Scroll Eidetic Spellcaster	3	1	(1)
2nd	+2	+0	+3	+3	Constrict, Tentacle Growth, Eater Skills, Electric Speech, +1 Dex
					-	4	2	(1)
3rd	+3	+1	+3	+3	Growth, Paralysis, Eater Immunities, Expert Grappler, Flight, Tentacle Growth, +1 Con
					Soul binding (1 vestige)
4th	+4	+2	+5	+3	Fearsome Predator, Hide and Hunt, +1 Con
					Soul binding +1	4	2	2
5th	+5	+3	+6	+3	Murderous Ambush, Probing Tentacles, +1 Con
					Exploit vestige, soul binding +2	4	3	3
6th	+5	+5	+6	+5	Eater Sight, Colony Exile, +1 Con
					Soul binding +3, vestigial awareness	4	3	3	1
7th	+6	+6	+6	+6	Powerful Eater, +1 Str
					Soul binding +4	4	3	4	2
8th	+7	+6	+7	+6	Hunger Growth, +1 Con
					Soul binding +5, vestige meta magic (1/day)	4	4	4	2	1
9th	+8	+7	+7	+7	Might Makes Meal, +1 Str
					Soul binding +6	4	4	4	3	2
10th	+8	+7	+7	+7	Great Eater, +1 Str, +1 Con
					Soul binding +7, vestige meta magic (2/day)	4	4	5	3	2	1
11th	+9	+7	+7	+8	Fiendish Template
					Soul binding +8	4	4	5	3	3	2
12th	+9	+8	+8	+8	Soul Eater 1st
					Soul binding +9, vestige meta magic (3/day)	4	4	5	4	3	2	1

 

Citations:

Grell - https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6147.0
Binder - Tome of Magic, p. 9
Anima Mage - Tome of Magic, p. 50

Edited November 14, 2023 by 8w_gremlin (see edit history)

[8w_gremlin]

My Work in progress area; will update with Build when completed.

Google sheet - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BRk553BlcDVQXc13QiSOYdSSWOjZdcG31MLgJa4KfoM/edit?usp=sharing

Grell

Eater  Body: At first level, a Grell loses all racial bonuses, traits, and abilities and gains aberration traits. Grells are medium aberrations with two tentacle secondary natural attacks that each deal 1d4+1/2 Str mod damage each, a bite primary natural attack that deals 1d6+ Str mod damage,  and a base speed of 5 feet. Its tentacles can perform fine manipulation and have a natural reach of 10 feet.

In addition, the Grell gains a bonus to its Natural Armor equal to its Con mod.

Due to their unusual anatomy, instead of what a humanoid can usually equip, the grell can only wear two neck items embedded in the thick hide of its body, two pair of bracers or bracelets on the thick uppet portions of two tentacles, and up to four rings of four additional tentacles (provided it has grown them). They can't wear any of the other usual humanoid items, except for armor in the form of customized barding.

Buoyant: As a swift action, the Grell can grant itself flight with perfect maneuverability with a speed of 30 feet for 1 round, but can't rise more than 5 feet in the air from the nearest surface below it.

Sightless: A Grell is blind, making it immune to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions and other attack forms that rely on sight. Its other senses are exceptionally sharp in return, granting the Grell Blindsight with a range of 60 feet.

Meal Grab: To use this ability, the Grell must hit an opponent with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action whitout provoking attacks of opportunity.

Ability Score Increase: The Grell gains +1 Dex at 2nd level and +1 Con at 3rd level.

Constrict: At 2nd level on a successful grapple check, the Grell deals 1d6+Str mod damage.

Tentacle Growth: At 2nd and 3rd level the Grell grows four more tentacles like the ones gained with Eater Body, for a total of ten tentacles at 3rd level.

Eater Skills: At 2nd level the Grell gains a Racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks equal to its Grell levels plus ½ its other levels.

Electric speech: At 2nd level the grell can communicate with creatures within 60 feet without making any audible sound.

Paralysis: At 3rd level the Grell's tentacles become lined with small spiny barbs, much like a squid's. Any creature hit by a Grell's tentacle must make a DC 6+1/2 HD+Con mod Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 2d4 rounds. Creatures struck by multiple tentacle attacks in the same round do not make multiple saving throws. Instead, they make a single saving throw, but the DC increases by 1 for every additional tentacle that hit in the same round.

Eater Immunities: At 3rd level the Grell becomes immune to electricity and Paralyzation.

Expert Grappler: At 3rd level a Grell can choose to grapple with one tentacle and remain ungrappled itself by taking a -10 penalty on its grapple check instead of the normal -20 penalty. This also grants the Grell a racial bonus on Grapple checks equal to its HD.

Flight: At 3rd level the Grell the Buoyant ability of the Grell is always active, and it can fly as high as it wishes.

Feral Grell

Fearsome Predator: Despite the name given to them by sages who study these monsters, Feral Grells are far more than wild beasts. Just slightly less intelligent than their philosopher cousins, Feral Grells are renowed for the ease they adjust to their current circumstances, coordinating with allies or striking on their own depending on what they consider more advantageous at the moment.  As a swift action, the Feral Grell can grant itself any Fighter bonus feat (except weapon proficiency feats) or [Monster] feat it qualifies for, lasting 1 round. You can only pick Martial Study up to 3 times per day.

Hide and Hunt:A life surviving on its own teaches the Feral Grell to compress its soft body against terrain features, perfectly blending in. It can now hide without need of cover or concealment, as long as adjacent to a  solid surface, and can even fly while hidden as long as it fulfills that condition. In addition, if it attacks from hiding and succeeds on grappling and/or paralyzing its target, it can muffle their voice and drag them down (or up if hiding in a ceiling), not making a sound nor being detected by others.

Ability Score Increase: The Feral Grell gains +1 to Con at each level, for a total of +2 Con at 2nd level.

Murderous Ambush: At 2nd level the Feral Grell can attack with all of its tentacles as a standard action, including a partial charge in a surprise round.

Probing Tentacles: In recent decades stories about tentacle monsters that disrobe their victims before devouring them seem to have gained considerable popularity. In simultaneous, Grell sightings on our material plane only started some decades ago. One wonders if the two could be somehow related.  At 2nd level the Feral Grell can perform a disarm or Sunder attempt as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity whenever it hits an opponent in melee against a piece of equipment in that opponent's possession.

Growth: At 3rd level the Grell grows one size category. (now Large)

Grell Patriarch

Eater Sight: The Grell patriarch's blindsight range increases by 5 feet per Patriarch level, plus an extra 5 feet for every two other levels.

Colony Exile: A Grell aiming to become a patriarch faces the problem the current area patriarch will kill without hesitation any possible rivals long before they can grow enough in power to be a threat. Thus an ambitious grell will choose a self-imposed exile. Even if temporary until they grow enough in power, it still teaches them to learn new skills on their own, and even a feral grell will have to master more subtle arts like debate. Choose two Patriarch class skills. You now always count as having max ranks in those two skills. If you already had ranks in those skills, you can change them to another skill.

Ability Score Increase: The Grell Patriarch gains +1 Con at levels 1, 3, 5 and +1 Str at levels 2, 4, 5, for a total of +3 Str and +3 Con at 5th level.

Powerful Eater: Grells respect two things above else, physical prowess and arcane power. Each patriarch eventually focuses on one of those aspects depending on how it developed.

Feral Patriarch

• At 2nd level, it can paralyze even creatures normally immune to it, but they gain a +5 bonus on their saves, and it no longer takes penalties for moving at full speed while hiding.
• At 3rd level, it ignores Freedom of Movement effects on its enemies when grappling them, and its tentacles inflict an automatic Dimensional Anchor on grappled enemies as long as the grapple lasts.
• At 4th level, its Bite attack now adds 1,5 Str mod to damage rolls and ignores all DR and miss chances.
• At 5th level its tentacles become primary attacks, adding full Str mod to damage rolls.

Hunger Growth: At 3rd level, the Grell Patriarch grows one size category. A feral now doesn't take size penalties on hide checks, while a philosopher receives an extra +2 bonus on spell penetration rolls and to resist dispel checks on his spells against enemies smaller than itself.

Might Makes Meal: Anything powerful enough to devour another creature is entitled to do so. At 4th level, an enemy struck by a Grell Patriarch's bite takes a cumulative -1 penalty to AC and saves for 1 minute.

Great Eater: At 5th level the Grell Patriarch stands at the very top of the food chain, even above other grell. It cares little of world domination or the enslavement of other races. Instead, it is primarily interested in enjoying to the fullest the delicacies such other races have to offer and expanding its own species. Choosing the following ability

• Colonizer-This works as the leadership feat, except you can use your Con Score instead only gain followers, not cohorts (no patriarch will admit a rival near its power level), and they must all be grells, which can take either Feral Grell or Philosopher Grell levels but after that only wizard, barbarian or fighter levels. Casualties are replaced every day, but should the Patriarch lose too many such minions too fast, they may revolt against it. This doesn't stack with actual leadership.

Edited October 30, 2023 by 8w_gremlin (see edit history)

[paladinred]

@8w_gremlin - Hi, are you still with us? I could do with you posting IC.

[8w_gremlin]

Yeah, sorry, I got sick for the last 6 days.
happy to post IC, I just need to adjust items and some spells etc, Is that not going to be a problem?

[8w_gremlin]

Zalthorin

Stats

Zalthorin
NE Grell, Feral, Patriarch, soul eater | Wizard, binder, anima mage,
Level 12,
Init 2, HP 120/120, DR 10/magic, Speed 5' 30 fly (perfect)
AC 19, Touch 12, Flat-footed 17,
Fort 15, Ref 11, Will 11,
Base Attack Bonus 9
Grapple (for free) 10 x Tentacles +18 (1d6+11, 20)
Bite +17 (1d8+11, 20)
Abilities Str 24, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10
Condition None

That would involve introducing them to me...

 

 

 

Stats - enhanced

Zalthorin NE Grell Grell, Feral, Patriarch, soul eater|Wizard, binder, anima mage, Level 12,
Init 4, HP 120 (132)/120, DR 10/magic,
Speed 5' 30 fly (perfect)
AC 27, Touch 14, Flat-footed 23, Fort 16, Ref 13, Will 11,
Base Attack Bonus 9

• 10 x Tentacles , Grapple (for free), Paralysis 2d4 rnds(fort dc 18+), energy drain (1)) +24 (1d6+14, 20). Constrict on Successful Grapple ( 1d6+13)
• Bite ignores all DR and miss chances. +23 (1d8+21, 20)

Abilities Str 36, Dex 19, Con 22, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10 Condition None (bite of the weretiger - persisted)

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by 8w_gremlin (see edit history)

[Steel Warrior]

Do a favor, post the math of your STR bonus etc. Is it all racial, binder stuff etc.

List every monster level, Like Grell 3, Feral Grell 2, Grell Patriarh 5, Fiendish Template 2 etc.
Also I forgot, which fiendish template are you using?
Currently stat wise.
I am counting +3 Str, +5 Con, +2 Int from just the Grell Racials.
If you had 18 str, +3 racial, +3 4th,8th,12th: = Str 24. So there's 12 Str to account for.

+1 int
+1 int
+1 con
+1 con
+1 con
+1 str
+1 con
+1 str
+1 str, +1 con

[8w_gremlin]

You are right, with the additions, but there are 2 size changes in the progression, from medium to large, and from large to huge.
due to those size changes, there are a number of effects, AC, to hit, and str all change, both positive and negative.

So overall the changes are +16 Str, -4 Dex, +8 Con, +5 NA -2 to AC, -2 to hit, just from the size changes.
My starting STR was 16.
 

Old Size1	New Size	Str	Dex	Con	Natural Armor	AC/Attack
Repeat the adjustment if the creature moves up more than one size.
Fine	Diminutive	Same	-2	Same	Same	-4
Diminutive	Tiny	+2	-2	Same	Same	-2
Tiny	Small	+4	-2	Same	Same	-1
Small	Medium	+4	-2	+2	Same	-1
Medium	Large	+8	-2	+4	+2	-1
Large	Huge	+8	-2	+4	+3	-1
Huge	Gargantuan	+8	Same	+4	+4	-2
Gargantuan	Colossal	+8	Same	+4	+5	-4

 

I have a spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BRk553BlcDVQXc13QiSOYdSSWOjZdcG31MLgJa4KfoM/edit#gid=2012780825 that has everything in it.
I'm using the LA:2 fiendish template, applied after Zalthorin got to the abyss

[Steel Warrior]

13 hours ago, 8w_gremlin said:

You are right, with the additions, but there are 2 size changes in the progression, from medium to large, and from large to huge.
due to those size changes, there are a number of effects, AC, to hit, and str all change, both positive and negative.

So overall the changes are +16 Str, -4 Dex, +8 Con, +5 NA -2 to AC, -2 to hit, just from the size changes.
My starting STR was 16.
 

Old Size1	New Size	Str	Dex	Con	Natural Armor	AC/Attack
Repeat the adjustment if the creature moves up more than one size.
Fine	Diminutive	Same	-2	Same	Same	-4
Diminutive	Tiny	+2	-2	Same	Same	-2
Tiny	Small	+4	-2	Same	Same	-1
Small	Medium	+4	-2	+2	Same	-1
Medium	Large	+8	-2	+4	+2	-1
Large	Huge	+8	-2	+4	+3	-1
Huge	Gargantuan	+8	Same	+4	+4	-2
Gargantuan	Colossal	+8	Same	+4	+5	-4

 

I have a spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BRk553BlcDVQXc13QiSOYdSSWOjZdcG31MLgJa4KfoM/edit#gid=2012780825 that has everything in it.
I'm using the LA:2 fiendish template, applied after Zalthorin got to the abyss

Ah, the thing you don't know.
Size changes in oslechamo specifically say they do change ability scores beyond what you get during normal leveling.

The exception is you don't change size, but take a +2 to an ability score.

FAQ

Growth modifiers

 

(click to show/hide)

Base Size	New Size	AC & Attack Bonuses*	Space*	Reach (Tall/Long)*	Ave. Size Incr.	Ave. Weight Incr.	Grapple Mod.	Hide Mod.
Fine	Diminutive	-4 (size)	+½’	+0’/+0’	+6”	+1/2 lb.	+4 (size)	-4 (size)
Diminutive	Tiny	-2 (size)	+1½’	+0’/+0’	+9”	+5 lbs.	+4 (size)	-4 (size)
Tiny	Small	-1 (size)	+2½’	+5’/+5’	+18”	+36 lbs.	+4 (size)	-4 (size)
Small	Medium	-1 (size)	+0’	+0’/+0’	+3’	+240 lbs.	+4 (size)	-4 (size)
Medium	Large	-1 (size)	+5’	+5’/+0’	+6’	+2000 lbs.	+4 (size)	-4 (size)
Large	Huge	-1 (size)	+5’	+5’/+5’	+12’	+8 tons	+4 (size)	-4 (size)
Huge	Gargantuan	-2 (size)	+5’	+5’/+5’	+24’	+80 tons	+4 (size)	-4 (size)
Gargantuan	Colossal	-4 (size)	+10’	+10’/+5’	+48’	+200 tons	+4 (size)	-4 (size)

No you don't gain extra stats just for growing. It's not even listed on the table. Just to make it clear since every other person asks it.
Your natural weapons damage increases one die size for each size increase tough.

 

[8w_gremlin]

Oh sorry I read
 

Quote

I don't want to grow!
If a monster class would make you grow but you would rather stay in your previous size, you may instead simply gain a +2 to a physical stat of your choice. This includes changeable growths like the elemental classes have, but once done the decision is permanent.

so if you choose to grow then you do, but if you choose to stay the same size you gain a +2 bonus.

I was using the base table from DMG. now that I've seen the table, you actually get penalized for growing, which seems odd.

1. you lose AC
2. you lose Attack bonus
3. there is no change in reach
4. you gain a bonus to grapple
5. you lose Hide bonus
6. and as you didn't choose to stay the same size you gain no stat bonuses
7. you do gain +1 damage to natural weapons (due to the size increase)

Overall that's a very large negative

I may have to rethink this then, it's not worth it.

[Steel Warrior]

8 minutes ago, 8w_gremlin said:

Oh sorry I read
 

so if you choose to grow then you do, but if you choose to stay the same size you gain a +2 bonus.

I was using the base table from DMG. now that I've seen the table, you actually get penalized for growing, which seems odd.

1. you lose AC
2. you lose Attack bonus
3. there is no change in reach
4. you gain a bonus to grapple
5. you lose Hide bonus
6. and as you didn't choose to stay the same size you gain no stat bonuses
7. you do gain +1 damage to natural weapons (due to the size increase)

Overall that's a very large negative

I may have to rethink this then, it's not worth it.

Yeah, that's why I rarely take size changes when playing a monster class, unless it's for fluff. By taking the deceivingly innocent form feat. I thought it would be fun to play a anthropomorphic frog that has swallow whole lol.

If you look at the actual savage species, you do not gain size change increases, it's already calculated into the savage progression.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Steel Warrior (see edit history)

[8w_gremlin]

Ok, let me look at the savage progression and rebuild the character then.

@Steel Warrior where is the Grell savage progression, I can't find it in the book, where are you looking?

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by 8w_gremlin (see edit history)

[Steel Warrior]

Lords of Madness. The feral grell doesn't get anything, they are just feral and do not use weapons, like the normal ones do.

Grell Philosopher is 5d8 simply a grell with 4 wizard levels and both are LA +6
Standard Grell: Abilities: Str 12, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 9
Grell Philosopher: Abilities: Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 12

You need 11 racial HD to be large.

Advancement: 6–10 HD (Medium); 11–15 HD (Large); or by class

There is no current savage progression created since Lords of Madness was never converted. LA +3 with 5d8, or LA +1 if you take 11 RHD. You get the size increase bonus per MM though.
I am reducing the LA to +1 if you take the 11 racial HD needed to be large, vs la +3 and 5hd which allows you to add a template for example.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Steel Warrior (see edit history)

[8w_gremlin]

Ok, now very confused.

1. Do I get to do a 32 pt by, or do I have to use those stats?
2. take a standard grell, 5 rhd+3la = ecl 8 (with 4 levels spare) or
3. take standard grell, but add on 6 rhd, with +1 la = ecl 12

is that correct @Steel Warrior 

just want to get this correct so don't have to re do it all ;-)

 

[Steel Warrior]

22 minutes ago, 8w_gremlin said:

Ok, now very confused.

1. Do I get to do a 32 pt by, or do I have to use those stats?
2. take a standard grell, 5 rhd+3la = ecl 8 (with 4 levels spare) or
3. take standard grell, but add on 6 rhd, with +1 la = ecl 12

is that correct @Steel Warrior 

just want to get this correct so don't have to re do it all ;-)

 

Correct, I am offering you alternate choices. Because you have to pay for the reduced LA with racial HD, but get the size stat bonus also vs having ECL 8 with 4 levels to spare to add a template for example. Half-Fiend, etc

 

[8w_gremlin]

Ok for ease and my sanity I'm keeping the original, not changing my size taking the +2 stat mod, (str), and removing the effects of huge size from the character sheet.