Character Creation Discussion Thread

[Illogictree]

Yeah, not fond of alignment myself. I was originally thinking of putting the Fate sphere on Rowan, but the fact it's very alignment-based didn't feel right for the powers of a rather amoral and whimsical fey. Maybe if there was a drawback that let you only use the Motif talents I would have tossed it on the pile, although she has so much going on already. XD

[Rudra]

wouldnt that make Mira chaotic neutral or chaotic evil(hedonists) (based on how far she's willing to go to -do what she want-) @Faeryl_ ?

[Faeryl_]

Probably closer to CN given that she doesn't actively seek to harm others (which is somewhat typical of CE creatures). Her primary policy is "leave me alone and I leave you alone", but she has differing personalities based on which "form" she's in, leaning much more towards Chaotic (if not Evil) when in her "foxy" form vs her human form.

Edited February 3 by Faeryl_ (see edit history)

[Rudra]

I think alignment serve more purposes than just smite/afterlife, in the universe(multiverse) of pathfinder , alignment is something that can be perceived/measured, it's a real element of a character and like language, race, gender,appearance ecc can influence how another creature see you.

I mean, detect good/evil is a level 1 spell(free for paladins), our characters are sufficiently high level to be detected, how would you react in the presence of something radiating a strong good/evil/chaotic/lawful aura?

Edited February 3 by Rudra (see edit history)

[Sundust]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Good to know i'm not the only one eagerly waiting the results😄

While reading mister doctor category i was like "who's this ME, never seen someone with such short nickname" i had to go check the character, silly me
In my defense, my brain saved capital M + E as Mass Effect

with such crazy, wildly different, alien characters i wonder what kind of relationship the party will form, i havent read them all but alignment/personality wise there is an huge variety, going from Jedi knight(whos probably the goodest thing around) to a mildly sadistic vampire

 

If that jedi is anything like Rey, Amara could start to find him exhausting. She might have to open an extradimensional room just to get stuff done. Throw a captive in there with some darkness and Sabine.

As to wild crazinesss... With planar gatewalking and apps like GETE, I almost went all sci-fi/tech and made Amara's mount an alien T-rex covered in rocket launchers... Not really her style, but - depending on setting and direction - still a possibility!

Edited February 3 by Sundust (see edit history)

[TheFred]

2 hours ago, Illogictree said:

I do want to say, with regard to the discussion on high-powered Spheres games, I feel like those are the only sorts I've ever seen. I've long been considering trying to run a game with Spheres that starts at low levels and uses rules-as-intended. Especially the role of Casting Traditions (and Martial Traditions as well) - using them to define how magic works in the world.

I've seen a variety. With some notable, more recent exception, the very high-powered Spheres games seemed to be rare.

I do like the idea of traditions to add some flavour to the world rather than being another thing to optimise (though that probably constrains/weakens characters a bit). Often though you do look at Martial Traditions and find nothing that makes sense for your character. I'm also finding that, whilst they still offer you a little bit too much, Sphere-specific drawbacks are pretty good for adding some focus - it doesn't make sense IMO that every character has to get the whole package for ever sphere, regardless of their tradition.

1 hour ago, Illogictree said:

Yeah, not fond of alignment myself. I was originally thinking of putting the Fate sphere on Rowan, but the fact it's very alignment-based didn't feel right for the powers of a rather amoral and whimsical fey. Maybe if there was a drawback that let you only use the Motif talents I would have tossed it on the pile, although she has so much going on already. XD

There is! Well, sort of: you can take both Tongue of Ages (no consecrations) and Sanctified (no words), and you've only got Motifs left. This is a pretty strong dip actually; if you throw Personal Fate into the mix then you get three whole Motifs for the low low price of one talent. Fate's probably one of the most dippable spheres (admittedly, there are lots of very dippable spheres) for this reason. I also just really like Motifs, personally.

[TheFred]

EDIT: Oops, duplicate post...

Edited February 3 by TheFred (see edit history)

[AdellRazh]

4 hours ago, Illogictree said:

I find it very amusing that Spark is basically the opposite of Rowan - a fey character with an (illusory) humanoid partner instead of a humanoid with a fey partner.

 

I do want to say, with regard to the discussion on high-powered Spheres games, I feel like those are the only sorts I've ever seen. I've long been considering trying to run a game with Spheres that starts at low levels and uses rules-as-intended. Especially the role of Casting Traditions (and Martial Traditions as well) - using them to define how magic works in the world. There are shades of this in how Rowan's magic works; literally all magic in her homeworld of Annwn works the way hers does.

I deliberately built Spark's magic to reflect how the fey of her world cast (inherently; undermined by their fragility and bound to the material, but highly potent). The result was painfully suboptimal and hurt me in my bones, but I find that a build that reflects a character, rather than an optimised series of mechanics, is more interesting. That really is a "to each their own" kind of thing, though.

Spark seems to have created a fake version of Rowan; both Rowan and la Veritas draw all of their power from their adorable fey sidekick, but la Veritas is a carefully constructed ruse to the counter. They could probably have a fascinating conversation about their respective experiences dealing with a tiny and far too powerful companion.

I am so curious how Fleetwood and Spark would interact. Probably... destructively.

Edited February 3 by AdellRazh (see edit history)

[Illogictree]

3 hours ago, AdellRazh said:

I deliberately built Spark's magic to reflect how the fey of her world cast (inherently; undermined by their fragility and bound to the material, but highly potent). The result was painfully suboptimal and hurt me in my bones, but I find that a build that reflects a character, rather than an optimised series of mechanics, is more interesting. That really is a "to each their own" kind of thing, though.

Spark seems to have created a fake version of Rowan; both Rowan and la Veritas draw all of their power from their adorable fey sidekick, but la Veritas is a carefully constructed ruse to the counter. They could probably have a fascinating conversation about their respective experiences dealing with a tiny and far too powerful companion.

I am so curious how Fleetwood and Spark would interact. Probably... destructively.

"Destructively" as in "engage in an ever-escalating prank war with the party caught in the crossfire", or as in "team up to be extra mischievous partners-in-crime"?

Or either, depending on their mood, time of day, etc?

[namo]

I know what you people are doing... You keep posting to trick others into thinking perhaps the selections have been announced. Like fey tricksters. Well I can play that game too! 😉

 

In terms of fey trickery, I had plans for Denor to do things like turn invisible and get represented by an illusion... which may now seem derivative of Spark/la Veritas 😅, but it's a classic for illusionists. But he's a "generalist" in terms of illusions, he switches it up. Sometimes he changes the decor, sometimes the people, sometimes he hides things, sometimes he creates a character 3 days ahead of time just to use it for a specific circumstance, ...
But his main distinguishing trait is that he can't outright lie, which I hope makes for an interesting trickster.

 

5 hours ago, TheFred said:

I do like the idea of traditions to add some flavour to the world rather than being another thing to optimise (though that probably constrains/weakens characters a bit). Often though you do look at Martial Traditions and find nothing that makes sense for your character. I'm also finding that, whilst they still offer you a little bit too much, Sphere-specific drawbacks are pretty good for adding some focus - it doesn't make sense IMO that every character has to get the whole package for ever sphere, regardless of their tradition.

Fully agreed on both counts. The premade casting traditions feel OK because they're a transposition of 1st party classes (they just leave aside all the new Drawbacks, but that's not a huge deal). Premade martial traditions are sometimes hyper-specific, and they certainly leave gaping holes: there's not a "I shoot my bow well" tradition, instead you get gunman, or mounted archer, or scout that can shoot a bow.

 

5 hours ago, TheFred said:

There is! Well, sort of: you can take both Tongue of Ages (no consecrations) and Sanctified (no words), and you've only got Motifs left. This is a pretty strong dip actually; if you throw Personal Fate into the mix then you get three whole Motifs for the low low price of one talent. Fate's probably one of the most dippable spheres (admittedly, there are lots of very dippable spheres) for this reason. I also just really like Motifs, personally.

Motifs are great in that they can be used to round out any character, but at the same time they're also "pile of numbers" kind of abilities, not very flavourful or character-defining. I do like the Hierophant since it's a party buff, and most of all the Emperor, because it's a unique, original effect (it reduces any penalty); it can be abused a bit, but is generally fine.

Edited February 3 by namo
typo (see edit history)

[AdellRazh]

7 minutes ago, Illogictree said:

"Destructively" as in "engage in an ever-escalating prank war with the party caught in the crossfire", or as in "team up to be extra mischievous partners-in-crime"?

Or either, depending on their mood, time of day, etc?

 

6 minutes ago, namo said:

In terms of fey trickery, I had plans for Denor to do things like turn invisible and get represented by an illusion... which may now seem derivative of Spark/la Veritas , but it's a classic for illusionists.

The real bit is when you get attacked and poof into illusory mist, and them step out of the shadows, "Actually, I was over here." But that is also an illusion.

[TheFred]

To be fair, the DM has like a bajillion apps to go through, all of which are elaborate and kind of complicated, so I'd be impressed if selections are any time soon.

3 minutes ago, namo said:

Fully agreed on both counts. The premade casting traditions feel OK because they're a transposition of 1st party classes (they just leave aside all the new Drawbacks, but that's not a huge deal). Premade martial traditions are sometimes hyper-specific, and they certainly gaping holes: there's not a "I shoot my bow well" tradition, instead you get gunman, or mounted archer, or scout that can shoot a bow.

Martial Traditions tend basically to be that martial characters get +2 talents... which is kind of fair, it's not like that's unbalancing. Martial characters need a bit of a boost and talents still never feel as numerous as you want them to. I've noticed that if I'm forced to use the standard traditions, I typically end up "wasting" one of the talent (it's something I don't really want or can't use) but can find something that matches 75%. Whether that actually makes any thematic sense for my character is another matter. It feels a bit weird taking "Pirate" when you're trying to make an elegant duellist just because it has Duellist and Fencing, for example.

3 minutes ago, namo said:

Motifs are great in that they can be used to round out any character, but at the same time they're also "pile of numbers" kind of abilities, not very flavourful or character-defining. I do like the Hierophant since it's a party buff, and most of all the Emperor, because it's a unique, original effect (it reduces any penalty); it can be abused a bit, but is generally fine.

Yeah a little bit. I like them both thematically and mechanically (I am glad you can go Motifs-only now as they felt like they had very little support at first) but they do fit better on some characters than others. Then again, they're pretty neutral too, so it's not like your average caster can't just learn a few +numbers buffs, it's not like forcing them into something like the Light Sphere just to get their damage boost or whatever.

To be honest, this is a bit of a problem I have with Spheres generally; the Spheres are super flexible and all that but I find that pretty much ever character just wants to dip one talent into Protection, Fate, War, Destruction, Divination and/or Veilweaving, and maybe two into Enhancement.

The Emperor is indeed pretty good, especially in conjunction with The Fool which is already pretty great itself. The Devil is one of my go-to AB buffs (though the CR-guessing effect is neat and fairly unique too), The Tower is great for any attacker, and if you're desperate for bonuses then Swords is OK too. A few of the others are good for the right kinds of characters (Strength for example, though it doesn't stack with The Devil or Divination, or Cups).

[namo]

30 minutes ago, AdellRazh said:

The real bit is when you get attacked and poof into illusory mist, and them step out of the shadows, "Actually, I was over here." But that is also an illusion.

Ah, Denor's version is slightly different: the body falls and bleeds out (though the attacker may disbelieve the illusion at this point, others may not), and then Denor steps out the shadows and says "You killed me!?" incredulously. (It's still another illusion, naturally.) 😉

[CraziFuzzy]

I find alignment useful for its original intended purpose - as a cue. Contrary to current trends, this hobby was not created for "actors," so needed prompts to help players play a role. Guidelines to help a player role-play someone they are not. It, of course, also works when treated as a true element of the world, where it is actually an energy force (like the way pathfinder mechanically treats it, or like a more multi-dimensional light-side/dark-side thing). The issue is when people take it and use it as an excuse for disruptive behavior without nuance, or unrealistically strict adherence to the letter of the alignments. Even with Callie's angelic nature, I try to make sure she is still "human" (small-h) and has varied responses that are not just based on strict Good, but can freely change with her moods or recent experiences. She does have bonuses to casting 'good' sphere effects, but I try to keep that limited to her alteration effects - so her Heavenborn trait is not so much a representation of how she's better at doing 'good', but better at channeling energies of her celestial ancestry.

[CraziFuzzy]

10 hours ago, TheFred said:

I'm also finding that, whilst they still offer you a little bit too much, Sphere-specific drawbacks are pretty good for adding some focus - it doesn't make sense IMO that every character has to get the whole package for ever sphere, regardless of their tradition.

I have, in all the years playing spheres, never seen anyone actually treat the sphere-specific drawbacks as a part of a casting tradition. They are always treated as what you describe - a way to half-dip into a sphere. It's certainly how I used them in every character I've ever played.