Redemption - General Hangout (Everyone Welcome)

[PixCO]

  Oh, mother-Svirfer!

45 minutes ago, Harding said:

I would place her Charisma score between 10 and 13, but with personality flaws.

On 1/4/2024 at 9:13 AM, Varen Tai said:

Frankly, I would largely switch her Wis and Int. Wis would have <redacted> faster, and she strikes me as far more intelligent than wise. Maybe int 14, wis 12 or something. Again, feel free to disagree.

 

I guess the house always wins after all...

[Rumrunner]

1 hour ago, Varen Tai said:

I'll also note that both Zelph and Rum have mentioned specific character traits to show the way they are RPing that are helpful as you guys interact. Torben has a low Int but a decently high Wis, and Rum has mentioned that Rillik struggles with being judgy. I think this all enhances the party's ability to RP well as a group! I highly recommend that all of you mention some foibles that don't involve spoilers for your own chars that can enhance the storytelling as y'all get used to being aorund each other on a regular basis. 😁

Yeah, building the relationship between Rillik and Torben will be difficult, but if they do it could be marvelously complimentary.

[Wizard of the Coat]

1 hour ago, Harding said:

Similarly, my opinion on her Charisma aligns with yours. Charisma reflects one's force of personality, and Svirfette appears far from unremarkable or plain. She exudes vibrancy, communicates effectively, and is generally pleasant to be around. While she may not possess a particularly powerful charisma, she certainly doesn't give off an inept vibe either. I would place her Charisma score between 10 and 13, but with personality flaws.

Ragz views a deep gnome girl as the most likable and people-skilled of the group. But his view of people-skilled leans towards cooperation and connection rather than persuasion and leadership.

My creation of Ragz was driven by an observation that has trouble me at times--a characteristic of D&D role play that has sometimes quashed my suspension of disbelief. In many/most D&D campaign settings, cultural barriers are minimized or nonexistant. In a typical D&D party, personality differences tend to trump cultural differences (which itself is a product of the radically individualistic cultural theme dominant in the U.S. and other western developed nations). So we role play PCs operating within culturally diverse groups (e.g. human, dwarf, dark elf, goblin) while facing few or no cultural barriers in their interactions. We typically take for granted personality (or idiosyncratic) differences as the vehicle for creating PC-PC relationship tension. I'm not suggesting that personality-based relationship tension is problematic, but that the absence or scarcity of tension based on cultural differences stands out (to me) as inauthentic. [I say this acknowledging that I play D&D for fun, not for a fully immersive experience. My concern about culture isn't a big pet peeve, it's just a little idea I've wanted to explore more fully.]

In creating Ragz, I wanted to create a character who would feel different and face challenges interacting with the other PCs due to cultural differences more than personality clashes or limitations. So before I created Ragz, I created a relatively detailed kobold culture designed to be different in many important ways from mainstream FR culture [I know of mainstream FR culture based only on games I've played on MW]. And I gave Ragz few/no personality traits designed to create PC-PC relationship tension. I wanted the any tension to feel cultural more than idiosyncratic.

In my view so far, a deep gnome girl has demonstrated the strongest culture-mediating communication skills in relation to Ragz' cultural oddities. So I was just a little surprised at the idea of her charisma penalty.

And, with Pix's original question in mind, I suppose my effort to portray Ragz as envisioned has less to do with his stats or personality and more to do with whether or not I've successfully portrayed details that make him feel culturally different more than idiosyncratically different.

That said, I'll post some of his stats and how I've attempted to portray them later (after semester grades are in).

 

Edited April 30 by Wizard of the Coat (see edit history)

[Rumrunner]

45 minutes ago, Wizard of the Coat said:

Ragz views a deep gnome girl as the most likable and people-skilled of the group. But his view of people-skilled leans towards cooperation and connection rather than persuasion and leadership.

My creation of Ragz was driven by an observation that has trouble me at times--a characteristic of D&D role play that has sometimes quashed my suspension of disbelief. In many/most D&D campaign settings, cultural barriers are minimized or nonexistant. In a typical D&D party, personality differences tend to trump cultural differences (which itself is a product of the radically individualistic cultural theme dominant in the U.S. and other western developed nations). So we role play PCs operating within culturally diverse groups (e.g. human, dwarf, dark elf, goblin) while facing few or no cultural barriers in their interactions. We typically take for granted personality (or idiosyncratic) differences as the vehicle for creating PC-PC relationship tension. I'm not suggesting that personality-based relationship tension is problematic, but that the absence or scarcity of tension based on cultural differences stands out (to me) as inauthentic. [I say this acknowledging that I play D&D for fun, not for a fully immersive experience. My concern about culture isn't a big pet peeve, it's just a little idea I've wanted to explore more fully.]

In creating Ragz, I wanted to create a character who would feel different and face challenges interacting with the other PCs due to cultural differences more than personality clashes or limitations. So before I created Ragz, I created a relatively detailed kobold culture designed to be different in many important ways from mainstream FR culture [I know of mainstream FR culture based only on games I've played on MW]. And I gave Ragz few/no personality traits designed to create PC-PC relationship tension. I wanted the any tension to feel cultural more than idiosyncratic.

In my view so far, a deep gnome girl has demonstrated the strongest culture-mediating communication skills in relation to Ragz' cultural oddities. So I was just a little surprised at the idea of her charisma penalty.

And, with Pix's original question in mind, I suppose my effort to portray Ragz as envisioned has less to do with his stats or personality and more to do with whether or not I've successfully portrayed details that make him feel culturally different more than idiosyncratically different.

That said, I'll post some of his stats and how I've attempted to portray them later (after semester grades are in).

 

So I sometimes do culture based conflict but sparingly, and I'm cringing every time I hit send, worried that I may come across as insensitive or racist. I've had such issues before, where not liking race X just because they were race X became a whole big thing, and i wasn't being overt, actually defending their racist npc grandmother... Prejudice vs other religions can also be touchy.

Important bit is to talk it through, it's definitely not okay in every game, so I try to reach out before hand.

[PixCO]

32 minutes ago, Wizard of the Coat said:

In my view so far, a deep gnome girl has demonstrated the strongest culture-mediating communication skills in relation to Ragz' cultural oddities. So I was just a little surprised at the idea of her charisma penalty.

She would have spent a couple of years living in the slums before her father managed to earn their way into better quarters. And that's where she does her philanthropy. Both would be blended neighborhoods. She's used to working with races other than her own. She also didn't manage to spend enough time in the Underdark for Svirfneblin culture to really take hold.

At least The Guild she's going against is massively racist. All of the higher positions are held by Humans, I think I've mentioned. Other races are kept around for entertainment, or if they show great aptitude they can at least get paid well. Only Humans are in charge, though.

She should be having more of a problem with Roland than with Ragz, now that I think about it. Humanity has not treated her well, and yet she's constantly having to suck up to them as potential donors to one cause or another. I might have to think about that one for a bit.

4 minutes ago, Rumrunner said:

I've had such issues before, where not liking race X just because they were race X became a whole big thing

'Kind of why I try to stay away from misanthropic traits in the first place. At least the ones I have any actual control over, of course. My personal misanthropy aside. It just gets in the way of a good game even if it might add to a story.

But yeah. Her get-along-to-go-along attitude is not representative of her Chr score. It might help to keep in mind that she's in a transitional state -- she started out as Neutral Evil, was briefly driven made with grief to Chaotic Evil, and has been raised to Neutral/Neutral through therapy on her way to Neutral Good. Staying away from True Neutral as I've always felt that deserves some special status.

Any social skills she would have are going to be learned, and employed through careful observation. Her native intuition should rightfully be crap where her social interactions rely heavily on context clues.

 

Not like any of us would be able to understand that, I'm sure...

[Wizard of the Coat]

1 minute ago, Rumrunner said:

So I sometimes do culture based conflict but sparingly, and I'm cringing every time I hit send, worried that I may come across as insensitive or racist. I've had such issues before, where not liking race X just because they were race X became a whole big thing, and i wasn't being overt, actually defending their racist npc grandmother... Prejudice vs other religions can also be touchy.

Important bit is to talk it through, it's definitely not okay in every game, so I try to reach out before hand.

Agreed. Generally, I'm uncomfortable roleplaying racisms in RPGs for the very reason you've raised.

My creative efforts with Ragz and kobold culture focused on cultural barriers/differences (e.g. Asian cultures tend to be collectivistic while western cultures tend to be more individualistic) rather than cultural hatred/conflict. And in areas of kobold culture where cross-cultural hatred or fear or conflict would almost certainly be unavoidable, I intentionally made Ragz an elderly and somewhat culturally enlightened representative of the culture, e.g. he is well traveled, having encountered many cultures, in an elderly stage of development in which he is reexamining his life, and he has recently taken up a more contemplative monastic tradition.

[Harding]

Roland is facing some significant challenges, especially with depression weighing heavily on him. It's important to portray his struggles authentically while also highlighting the complexities of his character. Despite his strong ability scores, depression can make even the simplest tasks feel overwhelming. Like many who battle depression, Roland may have moments of optimism or energy, but they're often fleeting, overshadowed by the weight of his condition.

The ongoing stressors in his life, such as the traumatic events surrounding his ''adventures'' in Waterdeep, the caravan massacres, life on the run, dragon chase and the addition of new, eccentric companions, only serve to exacerbate his mental state. Now, with the revelation that he may play a pivotal role in events beyond his comprehension, Roland's sense of hopelessness may deepen.

It's crucial to show how Roland's depression affects his daily life and interactions with others. His struggles may manifest in lethargy, lack of motivation, and difficulty finding joy in activities he once enjoyed. Despite these challenges, his friendship with Aly serves as a beacon of support in an otherwise bleak landscape. Also, there is the perception of the other around him, who are seeing him very differently of who he is.

Roland is a testament to what I lived before, outside of a fantasy setting of course. I struggled with depression for years, and I know how soul crushing it is - it's hard to even get off the bed in the morning, having constant low and high through the day. It change your normal behavior, for the worse, and sap all the energy you have in everything. This is why this character, despite his simplicity, is something deeply personal. But I want him to conquer his depression, to find himself through this challenge.

Edited April 30 by Harding (see edit history)

[Basil_Bottletop]

The inclusion of the so-called, and beloved, monster races in a party is the age old blind eye scenario. Whenever it comes up -and it comes up a lot- the party typically does default to simple acceptance over having the race-talk...again. In my time playing the hobby, the bigger thing that has always bothered me (or as Wizard said, broke the authenticity) of the monster race inclusion is when it's supposed to be a penalty and the penalty gets handwaved. I've seen dozens of GMs, both in live games and pbp, that will give the ol 'You can play one, but you'll have to deal with the consequences' only to realize that the consequences aren't terribly fun and thus forgotten almost instantly. So the Half-Tarrasque, Half-Yuan ti somehow never faces the consequences that were mechanically baked into that choice. The penalty is assumed to be an IC one because mechanically a Half-Tarrasque/Half Yuan ti is incredibly powerful mechanically. But if it's handwaved, the allure of such builds/concepts becomes greater.

In this game, we have three-ish monster races. Honestly, I'd have to ask 15 year-old Me if Kobolds are considered monster races in Faerun and he may not even know given the shift in the world lore over the years. But it seemed pretty early on that we handwaved one and then tried to hurry past the other two (as they were a crew of two) That's fine if the table accepts those terms. But if you as the writer of that concept were banking on a more cautious front and did not get resistance, it can mess up your projected narrative.

It doesn't take a monster race for that either. I have a character on MW that I love to play but don't bring out for most advertised games because there's buy-in required by my fellow players and I don't ever seem to get it in a game with random players. He's human. He's a basic fighter. But he's based on some of the old horror movie monsters. He's not exactly likeable but he's meant to be the blunt object the good characters in the group use to fight evil. I could never play him at a live table because all the nuance would be absolutely lost.

Edited April 30 by Basil_Bottletop (see edit history)

[PixCO]

5 minutes ago, Basil_Bottletop said:

...when it's supposed to be a penalty and the penalty gets handwaved.

Would it be fair, then, to say that Yopine's Charisma penalty is in part due to surface-world racism? A penalty that's not coming from her actions, but from her race?

Edited April 30 by PixCO (see edit history)

[Harding]

1 minute ago, PixCO said:

Would it be fair, then, to say that Yopine's Charisma penalty is in part due to surface-world racism? A penalty that's not coming from her actions, but from her race?

Charisma is not based on the other perception of you, but what you are exuding. Even people with high charisma can be hated, for race, cultural differences, difference of morals... name it.

So no, I don't think a race should impose charisma penalty because they are from elsewhere than the norm (the other way around, should a human have penalty in the underdark). In the 2nd edition of DnD, there was something called reaction modifier. The base of the test was based on other perception of your character, and you were using your modifier to beat the test. Same should be done in the 5e: the DM should put the DC higher if there is elements that goes against your character, like their racist perception, difference of morality, reputation... etc.

[PixCO]

9 minutes ago, Harding said:

Charisma is not based on the other perception of you, but what you are exuding. Even people with high charisma can be hated, for race, cultural differences, difference of morals... name it.

So no, I don't think a race should impose charisma penalty because they are from elsewhere than the norm (the other way around, should a human have penalty in the underdark). In the 2nd edition of DnD, there was something called reaction modifier. The base of the test was based on other perception of your character, and you were using your modifier to beat the test. Same should be done in the 5e: the DM should put the DC higher if there is elements that goes against your character, like their racist perception, difference of morality, reputation... etc.

Forgot about reaction adjustments. Her eloquence and overconfidence in debate should put her in the 15-16 range. Which is too high. And she's not been as uncomfortable in casual conversations as I'd planned, so 8 is too low.

She's argumentative and a natural contrarian. Which many people find to be a turn-off. Or so I've been told...

[Harding]

9 minutes ago, PixCO said:

She's argumentative and a natural contrarian. Which many people find to be a turn-off. Or so I've been told...

I enjoy argumentative and contrarian people. So, with me, your DC to convince me is lower. But with depending how deep is the stick in the ***, you may struggle against people baddly aligned with your personality disposition. So, it is a higher charisma check DC.

You see my point?

Edited April 30 by Harding (see edit history)

[Basil_Bottletop]

In most monster races, the penalty of being who-they-are is meant to be in the options available to them as a character in the story/plot. The drow does not have the option to go unnoticed in the Temple of Pelor. The Maug cannot go the second story of a poorly built building (read: I may have learned this the hard way).

To a more precise degree in terms of Yopine, I think you have the daunting task of trying to skirt the two realms between quirky and tone-killing. It's a very difficult task and sometimes you'll get it right and then in the next scene you might completely cut yourself off at the knees and lose whatever authenticity you may have been building. Dust yourself off, and starting over is the only move. Personally, the Smurf references are what get me most of the time. Her nickname is the equivalent of Dwarf-ette, if she was a dwarf. It's...odd. I get the comedy in the allure of said choice, but I think if the quirkiness of the character came out in-character more often then the 4th-wall breakage wouldn't have to do the heavy lifting.

EDIT: I should have more clear about the 4th Wall stuff. It's that it's stuff that can't be really reaction based for the other players, so it just lingers out there for us to read. We can't use it in any way, so in essence, it's not part of the character.

I'm in a similar boat with a character in a Ravenloft game, elsewhere on the Weave. As is often with Ravenloft, people want to be genre-savvy and they bring with them the exact thing that needs to go up against vampires, werewolves, and mummies. But Ravenloft is meant to be scary. What's scary about being the perfect person for the job at hand? So I proposed a dwarf from a crappy apocalyptic world that's been a slave-jester for a scary unnmentioned warlord in that world. A different kind of scary that allows me to also have respect for the scary bumps in the night of Ravenloft. It also allows me to be vulnerable to the horror side of things, but to be able to pick some things that 'just aren't as scary as back home'.

The result is that my character prances about and does silly things when he thinks people are looking. He's meant to be on display, in a way, and always assumes a warlord is just around the corner ready to reprimand him for not being his jester. But the moment he thinks he's alone, the charade comes off and he's just a downtrodden and cynical dwarf. I have to be very careful to not undermine the tone of the scene though with his act because there's already a few bonafide badasses (tm) in the group that aren't going to be scared about anything. And if the group's median ever tilts too far into that category, Ravenloft becomes a lot more silly.

Edited April 30 by Basil_Bottletop (see edit history)

[Zelphas]

I built Torben to be very awkwardly placed; he's a bugbear, which causes some natural inclinations (he's an obligate carnivore, for one, and his tendency to emote physically is connected to his species as well), but he's been raised by monks who are almost exclusively human, and has never interacted with goblinoids before (aside from one very short run-in with goblins after leaving the monastery), let alone other bugbears. This means that even he doesn't know what sets him apart from others, not really, and he doesn't know what to expect from other people.

Rillik's casual dismissal of his intelligence and antagonism was more of what I was expecting, to some extent; I was surprised when the majority of you went "oh a bugbear, that's not that weird" after meeting him the first time, but given the touchiness around race issues it's understandable. On Torben's part, he's been taught since he was young that, essentially, bad emotions are "wrong", and so he rarely expresses anger, frustration, or sadness directly, instead channeling them into something else or shutting them down. That's probably going to lead to a pressure cooker moment at some point down the line, but at the moment it means that he's somewhat avoidant towards hard topics and difficult conversations (as the last conversation showed fairly well). I agree that he and Rillik could complement each other pretty well, though it may take a bit before that happens.

Torben is delaying a lot of angst by shoving it in the bag of "I haven't ever met a bugbear before, so I don't know what they're like". Actually meeting a bugbear, or especially a group, will probably force him to confront a lot of unpleasant feelings that he's delayed or ignored so far.

I think I'll do the whole stats thing that a few others have done; it seems like a good way to lay out the character and get some ideas going.

[Basil_Bottletop]

Yeah, I typically do ask the whole 'how do you want us to react to your race?" question when shown that there's going to be an exotic one in the group. I'm actually surprised I didn't do that here, or maybe I did and I just forgot. In either case, your scene of joining the group was mired by the rapid-fire posting event and thus even if I wanted to play up that particular aspect of your concept, I didn't get the chance.

Frankly, that might be one reason Wyck hasn't even connected with him at all yet. I'm not sure exactly what to do with his experience around your kind.