PbP "Going through the motions" ?

[cailano]

41 minutes ago, Papa Bear said:

Oh, I dislike that. Like the rest of us can't see that you're logging in. Its a slap in the face. If you don't like a game or need to drop for whatever reason, let people know. At least the rest of the players in the game are treated with respect.

That said, I have seen a few players just gone, never seen or heard from again. (at least not by me). I always wonder if some tragedy befell them and will likely never know.

Hmmm... I'll have to leave instructions in my will for someone in my family to log on and tell my players my fate. Not that I expect to meet said fate any time soon, but just in case.

[Yamazaki]

21 hours ago, Lord Foul said:

I REALLY struggle to comprehend how so many people online behave with NO MANNERS whatsoever. By which I'm referring to just suddenly disappearing without a word of explanation. We've got two players in one game here at the moment who have not visited the site for over a month, and neither bothered letting the GM know anything about the reason for their absence or if it's going to be temporary or permanent. Nothing. At. All.

Why do people behave like this? It only takes a moment to send a brief explanation; enough to allow the GM to work around the inevitable disruption.

But yes, if it's actually the GM doing it then that's game death right there. No question.

Ghosting is just something that happens in this hobby, and there hasn't been a good solution ever proposed.

But the nature of the beast is that most folks who ghost, assuming they're not jerks to begin with, don't do it on purpose. They don't want to disappear from the face of the internet. They don't want to vanish without a word. But sometimes, it's just easier that way for them.

This is when we tackle the difficult topic of mental health and social anxiety and similar concerns, because that's usually the sort of stuff that crops up when folks ghost. Maybe they were late to post and felt guilty, and thus made it harder to post, which makes them even later to post, which ramps up the guilt making it even harder and thus the Death Spiral of Guilt begins. Maybe ADHD and Executive Dysfunction has slapped as a mass "NOPE" in the mindbrain preventing posting. Or maybe the relative to that, where you thought you posted but didn't actually do it (that one has happened to me far too many times). Maybe it's just right out Depression and/or Anxiety that makes you overthink everything you ever do, and posting becomes a true struggle.

Half of those could be mitigated by being really honest with oneself, as Basil pointed out. If you know you got problems of various kinds, you should be careful about the kinds of games you apply for, or try to be upfront about those problems. That's at least the responsible approach, but sadly, that requires a lot of self-reflection, something that people kinda suck at. And not everyone has reasonable access to mental health professionals, either, to assist in dealing with the pile of crap that is the human condition.

Therefore, I've gotten to the point where I'm relatively forgiving of ghosting. Life's complicated, after all. And by being understanding and forgiving helps reduce the stress and guilt of ghosting, making returning easier, and hopefully it eventually leads to not ghosting at all. I'm not saying that everyone should be, but I think cutting a bit of slack can go a long way.

 

Obviously, I won't forgive someone for ghosting a game I'm in to post in another game. That's just a jerk move. If you gotta leave a game because you're bored, just say something.

[Lord Foul]

Extremely well put.

I admit I tend to give far less slack to the ghosts, but then they aren't around to know about that anyway, so no further harm done. It's not like I get to actually tell them what I think of their behaviour to their faces.

 

[cailano]

I don’t see any reason to be unforgiving of ghosting if the player returns to the Weave down the road. I’ve been in games that were awesome for three or four months before the GM vanished and I still remember them well because I enjoyed those months.
 

Everyone probably has different ideas of what makes a game a success. If the GM sets out to complete something crazy, like a Paizo Adventure Path, they probably won’t finish it (I don’t think anyone has) so holding them to that standard is unreasonable.

 

IMHO any game that makes it to 1000 game-related posts, especially IC posts, is a success. It takes months to get there, so I feel like the game justified the effort of starting at that point.

 

And of course I’m always advocating for GMs taking on less ambitious challenges. For example, if I were to take on another Pathfinder campaign I’d be way more likely to run something like Daughters of Fury (60 pages) than Rise of the Runelords (probably 300 pages.)

 

I think the Dungeon Crawl Classics modules are a perfect length for PbP. An active group can get through one in a few months and they only take a few days for the GM to prep them.

[Yamazaki]

4 minutes ago, cailano said:

Everyone probably has different ideas of what makes a game a success. If the GM sets out to complete something crazy, like a Paizo Adventure Path, they probably won’t finish it (I don’t think anyone has) so holding them to that standard is unreasonable.

There are records of finished APs and the like. They happen, but they're the exception to the general rule that most fail before even getting thru the first book of the AP. Certainly takes a lot more dedication and determination to the campaign, and they're usually a multi-year ordeal.

But yeah - smaller adventures are far more feasible for the average crowd. Even those struggle to get off the ground, but the odds are better at completing those compared to the bigger adventures.

[Bobcloclimar]

1 hour ago, Yamazaki said:

Maybe they were late to post and felt guilty, and thus made it harder to post, which makes them even later to post, which ramps up the guilt making it even harder and thus the Death Spiral of Guilt begins.

This is primarily why I ghosted in the past. It's a bad habit, and one of the reasons I took a break from PBP to begin with - too much accumulated guilt. Since it's entirely player-side, I can't think of a good way to mitigate it, other than proactive check-ins by the GM (which doesn't seem fair to add more burden to them).

[Lord Foul]

23 minutes ago, Bobcloclimar said:

2 hours ago, Yamazaki said:

Maybe they were late to post and felt guilty, and thus made it harder to post, which makes them even later to post, which ramps up the guilt making it even harder and thus the Death Spiral of Guilt begins.

This is primarily why I ghosted in the past. It's a bad habit, and one of the reasons I took a break from PBP to begin with - too much accumulated guilt. Since it's entirely player-side, I can't think of a good way to mitigate it, other than proactive check-ins by the GM (which doesn't seem fair to add more burden to them).

In my experience, GM (or player) check-ins can be very useful if it's just a matter of not posting for some time. But they need to at least be visiting the site to receive those enquiries, or spot notifications via whatever channels they have set up. That won't work for someone who just disappears completely, regardless of the root cause.

But feedback I've received from people who have just been struggling a bit has always been very positive; gratitude for providing that little extra push to help motivate them.

 

[cailano]

1 hour ago, Yamazaki said:

There are records of finished APs and the like.

I've never heard of a Paizo AP being finished in PbP. If its happened, I've never seen it. A few others have been, but they were significantly shorter, which is a good thing! Shorter is what I recommend.

[Roughtrade]

On 1/17/2024 at 9:53 AM, cailano said:

Then it's been two weeks, and you haven't communicated with your group, and you're ashamed to show your face.

Happens to all of us. And it becomes "A Thing" like... Since I haven't posted in more than a week then I should do something really big to make it seem worth while.

Which is, of course, easier said than done which delays you ever more which makes you feel more guilty which makes you hesitate longer .....

It's a self feeding spiral.

[Roughtrade]

24 minutes ago, cailano said:

I've never heard of a Paizo AP being finished in PbP.

I completed Rise of the Runelords, Burnt Offerings and Skinsaw Man. Lost three players along the way and had decent replacements. Started Hook Horror but barely got through the introduction before player attrition combined with a bunch of Real Life crap had me take a year long sabbatical from Myth.

 

I think it took like three years. Maybe five. Let me see if I can figure it from datamining the old site.

 

I started Burnt Offerings in October of 2012. Transitioned to Skinsaw in 2015. Began Hook Horror 2017.

So yeah, five years. I had a core group of three really good players. The other original two were solid as well, but real life interfered. Got lucky with replacements along the way, almost no flakey "I'll post six times a day for two weeks and then vanish" types.

[cailano]

17 minutes ago, Roughtrade said:

I completed Rise of the Runelords, Burnt Offerings and Skinsaw Man. Lost three players along the way and had decent replacements. Started Hook Horror but barely got through the introduction before player attrition combined with a bunch of Real Life crap had me take a year long sabbatical from Myth.

 

I think it took like three years. Maybe five. Let me see if I can figure it from datamining the old site.

 

I started Burnt Offerings in October of 2012. Transitioned to Skinsaw in 2015. Began Hook Horror 2017.

So yeah, five years. I had a core group of three really good players. The other original two were solid as well, but real life interfered. Got lucky with replacements along the way, almost no flakey "I'll post six times a day for two weeks and then vanish" types.

Congrats, that's not bad!
 

It's similar to how far I got with Jade Regent. I started the AP in 2013 and ran it for five years. We make it about halfway through the fourth module. Incredibly, I kept the same core players the entire time. We did have a couple of fifth players come in an out during the campaign.

But I hit burnout several times during those years. I also switched jobs, got married, had two kids, and bought a house.

I wish we'd finished it. It was an awesome campaign that I will always remember fondly.

[Roughtrade]

Re: Player Attrition.

I almost always try to start with six or seven players. I know this can cause some slow down in conversation scenes and it requires some tweaking of AP encounters which often seem to be based on four players. With that in mind, I feel I can handle player attrition better with this size of a group. In a four person group, loss of one player can be crippling. You cast out for a replacement and sort of are on the hook to take the first offer that comes along.

This is certainly one of those "Your Mileage May Vary" situations.

But in my experience, within the first three months of a game starting you get three players dropping. One will be someone who joined too many games and drops out because your game is newest one they collected before over extending themselves. One will have life issues, usually school commitments or a sudden change in their job. And one will just vanish with no word.

 

[Roughtrade]

On 1/17/2024 at 8:42 AM, OzzyKP said:

Some of them may be great GMs, but our styles or pace just don't match up.

I have this problem lots.

Some GMs come across as if it is an honor for you to be allowed to submit a character to their game.

I take the Player Application process as an opportunity to interview the GM. How do they react to someone asking them a question? Are they helpful to someone who is unfamiliar with the system? Do they disparage someone who missed a line in their application process or make a maths mistake in calculating attributes? And a big one for me, do they ignore questions from a player if they think the question is inconsequential?

Every player question is important to that player. You can answer a blanket yes or no, or you can say it is not really important and the player is allowed to make the decision for themselves. But don't ignore it for three days. That player had a reason for asking the question, give them the courtesy of an answer.

[Lord Foul]

34 minutes ago, Roughtrade said:

Happens to all of us.

No, it doesn't. That's just another excuse. It doesn't happen to me, and I know a lot of other people it doesn't happen to either.

It's not okay. Making out that it is okay just encourages people to do it more.

 

[Lord Foul]

15 minutes ago, Roughtrade said:

I have this problem lots.

Some GMs come across as if it is an honor for you to be allowed to submit a character to their game.

I take the Player Application process as an opportunity to interview the GM. How do they react to someone asking them a question? Are they helpful to someone who is unfamiliar with the system? Do they disparage someone who missed a line in their application process or make a maths mistake in calculating attributes? And a big one for me, do they ignore questions from a player if they think the question is inconsequential?

Every player question is important to that player. You can answer a blanket yes or no, or you can say it is not really important and the player is allowed to make the decision for themselves. But don't ignore it for three days. That player had a reason for asking the question, give them the courtesy of an answer.

This is great advice.

I've only been through this kind of application process once since coming over to MW, but it was... an education. I learned a lot about the prospective GM during that process, to the extent that by the time they actually made a decision I'd already decided not to accept a place if it was offered (it wasn't, so that was a moot point).