PbP "Going through the motions" ?

[Roughtrade]

2 hours ago, Lord Foul said:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist that one.

 

When I set’em up, I do intend for some one to knock it over the net.

[forcemagnitude]

6 hours ago, Roughtrade said:

I was. Bookmarking, finding old posts, tracking quotes.
Getting pendantic and debating semantics is less than helpful.

Discord is great for what it can do.
Finding old messages is not one of those things.

As an archive repository, Baldr is better. If a game using Discord also updates on the game then it’s great, but my experience has been that keeping things updated is not always successful.

It's not semantics and I'm not being pedantic. You pin a post, and from that point on you can access it instantly at any time. No searching or tracking required.

[leons1701]

How many posts do you pin? What if you want something you didn't know you were going to need? Discord is a nice tool for some uses, it is nothing more than that.

[Basil_Bottletop]

We get it. Some people like/love Discord and some people dislike/hate it. I realize there is a place for a discussion on the functionality of the program that could be a learning experience for people less versed in it's nuance, but this probably isn't the place for it. Start a new thread or something.

Back on Topic...

I think one of the Going Through the Motions conversations that needs to be had more often is the Spiral of Death/Guilt that comes with the obligation of PbP. Being open and honest with your tablemates (and more importantly: yourself) about your time and commitment level is important. If it changes, let people know. I've been in games where the GM routinely ghosted for weeks or months at a time. Upon their return, they'd offer a half sentence remark and then just immediately jump into the 'Who's still here?"

Frankly, it's a little tone deaf. You were the one that left. You may have even left multiple times. It would be nice if you offered some assurances -even if you truly couldn't protect them from Real Life - that you aren't going to be the one that bounces again in two weeks. "Hey, I know I left for a bit because work was really kicking my butt, but it's back to regular hours and I've been keeping notes on what we should get into next IC, so pop in and let me know how many folks are still interested." It's such an easy thing to do, and yet it regularly gets done so poorly.

"Sorry, got busy and didn't check the site for a bit [narrator: It's been a month+]. If we have enough people, let's get back into it. Who's still here?"

If you are someone who routinely checks out for big spurts, then I'd suggest finding games that keep that pace OR be willing to be a second-tier character in the story. There are games on MW that carry a pace for the casual player. There's games that carry the posting structure of the less-verbose. There's games for all sorts of styles here, and yet people tend to not be very honest with themselves about what they want to put into the game and what they want out of it.

Edited January 17 by Basil_Bottletop (see edit history)

[OzzyKP]

I think that is important. I've certainly learned as a player to look into each GM before I apply to the game. Some of them may be great GMs, but our styles or pace just don't match up. It would be helpful for GMs to write up some information spelling out their style and routine so players can self-select before a game begins. I know that I am very slow, getting a post up once a week is the most I can hope for, so I try to give people a warning from the beginning. Here is what I wrote up for a game I GMed a few years back:

About Ozzy

About Ozzy the GM

Hey folks! Just a bit about my RPG background. I was first introduced to D&D by a friend of mine in elementary school. We had a campaign in 2nd edition for a bit, he as DM me as player. I got really into it, but before long my friend got bored, had me enter a room where the ceiling fell on me and that was that. I wasn't really able to scratch this itch again until 2012 when I discovered play-by-post. I tried a few different systems over at Giant in the Playground before settling on Pathfinder & Myth-Weavers exclusively. One of the first games I joined is, inexplicably, still going today thanks to the steady GMing of Hoverfrog (who first brought me over to MW).

I took my first step into GMing last year when I opened the Irorium Arena. This game will be just my second attempt at GMing a game. Eek. Hopefully I can pull it off. Go easy on me, I'm still pretty new at this.

In general my posting style as a character is heavy on inner monologue and light on imagery. This game will be a stretch for me to change that since you guys shouldn't know what is going on inside the NPCs' heads, but should know what they are wearing. Even so, I may not give you the greatest descriptions of things, so feel free to poke me if I'm leaving a bit much to the imagination. I do, however, try to compensate for things with some nice pictures/graphics.

As players in my arena game know, I like having everything based in firm rules and mechanics and am not a fan of "theater of the mind". Encounters will have maps, on Roll20. I strive to be a Lawful Neutral GM, I will do my best to hold you to the game rules as written. For any 'rule of cool' moments, there are always Hero Points. Unfortunately, the mechanics of this game are incredibly complex and infuriatingly open to interpretation. I do my best and consult other sites for rule help. I am always open to a good argument for why I ruled on something wrong, and I'm very ready to change direction if you convince me.

I strive for realism in my games. I want to create a real, believable world filled with three-dimension, believable characters. A believable character has hopes, dreams, relatives, personality, ticks, things that annoy them, things that interest them, and real history. A believable world is filled with far more nooks and crannies than just your next encounter. I am interested in attempting to model the complexity and variety of our world. I grew up on Spider-Man comics and what sets Peter Parker apart from Superman and other heroes is he had rent to pay, he had a sick aunt to take care of, and a girlfriend he kept disappointing as he went off to save the city. He was a superhuman hero who had very human needs and problems. I want to do the same with my games. I expect you to track encumbrance, food, ammo, etc. If you attack the town blacksmith, there will be consequences. If you sleep outside in the snow without a tent it will be unpleasant. If you just want to whack something with a pointy stick, join my arena. If you want to see how your character would fare in a world of magic, monsters, landlords, and muscle cramps, this game is for you.

As a player I tend toward skilled or martial characters, so perhaps the inclusion of Legendary & Everyman classes is a function of my own biases hoping to boost the non-magical. I think Skill Challenges will, despite their complexity, be a fun way to deepen parts of the game not covered by exposition or combat.

I try to remain organized as both a player and a GM. I hope you can do your part.

About Ozzy the Person (well, a bit)

I live outside of Washington, DC and have been happily married for the last 5 years. I'm 38 and have two daughters, a 2.5 year old and two-month old. I'm originally from Michigan and a football & baseball fan. I enjoy the Civilization franchise of video games.

I am stubbornly committed to things I begin. Like Dierks Bentley, I hold on. I got my first car at 16 and held onto it for the next 20 years. I got involved in an organization right after high school and have continued to work & volunteer for them ever since. I stick things out, so while I can't promise this game will move at a fast clip, or even be terribly well written, I promise I'm never going to give you up. With two young kids, a house to maintain, a job and volunteer commitments there may be periods where the game grinds to a halt, I apologize in advance, but I'll keep checking in and begging your forgiveness in the OCC thread until I can get the wheels unstuck. I'll never ghost on you.

About Ozzy's Reign of Winter

I'm still reading through things, but survival in extreme conditions seems to be a big theme of this game and I'm not going to shy away from it. I expect encumbrance, ammo, food and other fiddly things to be tracked, I will double check your numbers now and then, but overall I hope to trust y'all to keep track. Weather will definitely be a factor in the game, ignore it at your own peril. Hopefully I can use Skill Challenges to make the weather a fun challenge instead of just an obnoxious penalty.

If your character dies I'll let you roll up a replacement character, though there will be some penalty on them, like lower WBL or starting a level behind the other PCs.

We will be using block initiative and won't be tracking XP (you'll level up according to the story progression).

[Lord Foul]

2 hours ago, Basil_Bottletop said:

I think one of the Going Through the Motions conversations that needs to be had more often is the Spiral of Death/Guilt that comes with the obligation of PbP. Being open and honest with your tablemates (and more importantly: yourself) about your time and commitment level is important. If it changes, let people know. I've been in games where the GM routinely ghosted for weeks or months at a time. Upon their return, they'd offer a half sentence remark and then just immediately jump into the 'Who's still here?"

Frankly, it's a little tone deaf. You were the one that left. You may have even left multiple times. It would be nice if you offered some assurances -even if you truly couldn't protect them from Real Life - that you aren't going to be the one that bounces again in two weeks. "Hey, I know I left for a bit because work was really kicking my butt, but it's back to regular hours and I've been keeping notes on what we should get into next IC, so pop in and let me know how many folks are still interested." It's such an easy thing to do, and yet it regularly gets done so poorly.

"Sorry, got busy and didn't check the site for a bit [narrator: It's been a month+]. If we have enough people, let's get back into it. Who's still here?"

If you are someone who routinely checks out for big spurts, then I'd suggest finding games that keep that pace OR be willing to be a second-tier character in the story. There are games on MW that carry a pace for the casual player. There's games that carry the posting structure of the less-verbose. There's games for all sorts of styles here, and yet people tend to not be very honest with themselves about what they want to put into the game and what they want out of it.

Oh... this. So much this!

I REALLY struggle to comprehend how so many people online behave with NO MANNERS whatsoever. By which I'm referring to just suddenly disappearing without a word of explanation. We've got two players in one game here at the moment who have not visited the site for over a month, and neither bothered letting the GM know anything about the reason for their absence or if it's going to be temporary or permanent. Nothing. At. All.

Why do people behave like this? It only takes a moment to send a brief explanation; enough to allow the GM to work around the inevitable disruption.

But yes, if it's actually the GM doing it then that's game death right there. No question.

 

[Basil_Bottletop]

Re: Doing your homework on potential GMs

It used to be a big part of my App process. I've griped in the MW Discord -now don't start that up again...- that the lack of history on the new MW really put a cramp in that line of investigation. It's a clean slate for a lot of people, which is probably a relief. But it does make it a little tough to 'check out' your potential GM and/or players. A little blurb would be a great idea in ads.

[cailano]

Great job getting the thread back on topic @Basil_Bottletop.

As someone who has been GMing on the Weave on and off for more than a decade, I just want to say that the death/guilt spiral is real. As a GM, it is easy to miss posts for a couple of days, but then convince yourself that you'll have time to post again later. Then, a couple more days pass, but you have a family thing you're dealing with. Then the kids get sick. Then it's been two weeks, and you haven't communicated with your group, and you're ashamed to show your face. That game you've enjoyed so much and put so much effort into is now in trouble, and you know it's your fault. There's so much to catch up on! And you really should get the yard work done first...

It's so easy to fall into that trap. I've fallen into it myself more than once.

But Basil has it right. You need to communicate with your group. You've asked them to commit to your game and if they've done so, they deserve to hear from you.

Even if you burn out. Burnout is a thing. If you need a month, you need a month. Just let people know.

 

[Suzuki Stumpy]

1 hour ago, Lord Foul said:

Oh... this. So much this!

I REALLY struggle to comprehend how so many people online behave with NO MANNERS whatsoever. By which I'm referring to just suddenly disappearing without a word of explanation. We've got two players in one game here at the moment who have not visited the site for over a month, and neither bothered letting the GM know anything about the reason for their absence or if it's going to be temporary or permanent. Nothing. At. All.

Why do people behave like this? It only takes a moment to send a brief explanation; enough to allow the GM to work around the inevitable disruption.

But yes, if it's actually the GM doing it then that's game death right there. No question.

 

Problem is, it's easy to push a blanket statement like that out, but the reality is that sometimes there may be no option.

What happens if the person has been rushed into hospital, or involved in a serious car accident, or, heaven forfend actually died? I seriously doubt that logging into a gaming site to say they won't be around for some time (or at all) is top of mind for those...

[cailano]

5 minutes ago, Suzuki Stumpy said:

Problem is, it's easy to push a blanket statement like that out, but the reality is that sometimes there may be no option.

What happens if the person has been rushed into hospital, or involved in a serious car accident, or, heaven forfend actually died? I seriously doubt that logging into a gaming site to say they won't be around for some time (or at all) is top of mind for those...

Sure, and I think everyone would understand in a situation like that. But I'm sure that sort of thing isn't the most common one for GMs disappearing. At least, I hope not! It hasn't been for me.

[Suzuki Stumpy]

1 minute ago, cailano said:

Sure, and I think everyone would understand in a situation like that. But I'm sure that sort of thing isn't the most common one for GMs disappearing. At least, I hope not! It hasn't been for me.

Absolutely, and I was being more than a little facetious if I'm being perfectly honest. However, the point I was trying to make really is that really, we have no way of knowing a person's reason for completely ghosting so just need to be cautious about casting shade about them. Unless it's someone you know and are in contact with outside the site, then who knows a person's reasons?

[Lord Foul]

16 minutes ago, Suzuki Stumpy said:

Absolutely, and I was being more than a little facetious if I'm being perfectly honest. However, the point I was trying to make really is that really, we have no way of knowing a person's reason for completely ghosting so just need to be cautious about casting shade about them. Unless it's someone you know and are in contact with outside the site, then who knows a person's reasons?

It's a valid point, I'll grant you. In fact in the game I was using as my example there is a third absent player who is in just that kind of situation... but he managed to let the GM know about it so that speaks volumes in itself.

I know we're supposed to not make assumptions and give everybody the benefit of the doubt and all, but how often is that just used to excuse being an asshat? The anonymity of the internet gives us every opportunity to treat people like they just don't matter. So let's not find more ways to excuse that kind of behaviour. It's rude; don't do it. Or if you must do it, then at least own it; don't claim you have a special license to be rude with impunity.

 

[Vladim]

3 hours ago, Suzuki Stumpy said:

Absolutely, and I was being more than a little facetious if I'm being perfectly honest. However, the point I was trying to make really is that really, we have no way of knowing a person's reason for completely ghosting so just need to be cautious about casting shade about them. Unless it's someone you know and are in contact with outside the site, then who knows a person's reasons?

Generally agree! Except for all the times when someone ghosts a game but you can still see them chatting and posting in other games like everything is ok. That never ceases to surprise me :)

But yeah... Barring personal tragedy, major life upheaval or mental issues, I think Basil has the right of it.

[Kylia Quilor]

even if you do have that sort of major thing happen, a bit of up front 'shit happened, I'm sorry, are we up for picking up where we left off' would go over better than 'hey, I'm back, who's still here', I think.

[Papa Bear]

5 hours ago, Vladim said:

Generally agree! Except for all the times when someone ghosts a game but you can still see them chatting and posting in other games like everything is ok. That never ceases to surprise me :)

But yeah... Barring personal tragedy, major life upheaval or mental issues, I think Basil has the right of it.

Oh, I dislike that. Like the rest of us can't see that you're logging in. Its a slap in the face. If you don't like a game or need to drop for whatever reason, let people know. At least the rest of the players in the game are treated with respect.

That said, I have seen a few players just gone, never seen or heard from again. (at least not by me). I always wonder if some tragedy befell them and will likely never know.