PbP "Going through the motions" ?

[Papa Bear]

15 hours ago, cailano said:

Hmmm... I'll have to leave instructions in my will for someone in my family to log on and tell my players my fate. Not that I expect to meet said fate any time soon, but just in case.

Heh, I have a standing agreement with one of my buddies who plays here to let my game-mates know if something happens to me.

[Roughtrade]

8 minutes ago, Lord Foul said:

It's not okay. Making out that it is okay just encourages people to do it more.

Well congratulations on being perfect, never making a mistake, and never having self doubts. Must be nice.

On the gripping hand, some people have issues with anxiety or just not being perfect at all times and in all places. Disparaging them or acting as if their personal worries or concerns are to be ignored really does not help with keeping them in the game.

[Yamazaki]

19 minutes ago, Lord Foul said:

No, it doesn't. That's just another excuse. It doesn't happen to me, and I know a lot of other people it doesn't happen to either.

It's not okay. Making out that it is okay just encourages people to do it more.

I honestly doubt that you're that on top of your posting. Nobody is perfect. Nobody can always be on top of everything all of the time.

Furthermore, shaming people for, well, being people who have issues doesn't help the problem either. We all gotta cope with this thing we call life, after all.

I'm not saying we should forgive people all the time for whatever, but there is a difference between cutting a bit of slack for those who needed a bit of extra time to get their head back on straight, or to deal with real life, or whatever the nine hells happened, can make a huge difference in their continued presence in this hobby and medium of play. It encourages them to come back, encourages them to keep trying until they hit that groove, encourages them to find that group that finally clicks and the stars align.

Shame solves nothing. Punishing those who have to deal with whatever will only drive those otherwise reasonably decent players away from a good game or even a good community.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration all too well, and it's a valid feeling. It sucks when a player or even a GM just vanishes off the face of the internet, and the game putters out into non-existence. But it's best for the wellbeing of all, both people and the hobby, to let go of that frustration. Learn from the experiences, no doubt, but not to hold onto grudges or hate. Grieve the loss of the game and move on. Life will go on.

 

EDIT: it is worth noting that this is a more generalized viewpoint. As for on the stance of one's own games - draw your own line in the sand. If someone ghosts and comes back but you don't want 'em back - that's fine, you have obligation to let them back in. But I still urge all of us not to shame folks for dealing with their lives.

Edited January 18 by Yamazaki (see edit history)

[Lord Foul]

6 minutes ago, Roughtrade said:

Well congratulations on being perfect, never making a mistake, and never having self doubts. Must be nice.

On the gripping hand, some people have issues with anxiety or just not being perfect at all times and in all places. Disparaging them or acting as if their personal worries or concerns are to be ignored really does not help with keeping them in the game.

Oh, I'm far from perfect. But I do take responsibility for my shortcomings and do my best not to act like any of my personal problems give me a licence to be a jerk.

I'm not intending to disparage anyone for their mental health issues; just for using that as an excuse to behave poorly. It is a choice. May not always be an easy one, but still a choice.

 

[Roughtrade]

37 minutes ago, Lord Foul said:

I'm not intending to disparage anyone for their mental health issues; just for using that as an excuse to behave poorly. It is a choice. May not always be an easy one, but still a choice.

Yeah, you are sort of missing the point of mental health issues. For those afflicted with them it is not really a choice.

However, that was not my intention. That is a world of a different subject than we are going to solve here.

I do think that, beyond afflictions, that everyone has self doubts at times and everyone can feel self conscious and everyone can at times have those self doubts and feelings of being overwhelmed become an interference in posting.

 

And perhaps my previous post was a touch obnoxious and should field an apology. But my intention remains, your remarks are (In my opinion) callous, cold hearted and lacking in empathy. Maybe you have never felt like you let something go too long and never were apprehensive about how to approach returning to get things on track. And if that is true, then wonderful for you. That does in no way negate that others have had difficulty in getting back on the horse.

[OzzyKP]

It isn't about shaming or punishing those who ghost on games. But, as a matter of protecting ourselves and the success and enjoyment of future games it is worth looking into the history of players and GMs to see whether they've ghosted before. There are a number of people on here who start up a new game every couple months before abandoning it and starting another. If that's fine with you, then great. Play with them and enjoy the next two months for all its worth, just know what you're getting into. I'm not interested in investing my time and energy into a game or player when I know that at any moment that person may disappear with no notice.

I'm no stranger to the guilt/death spiral. I routinely go weeks between IC posts (and feel really guilty about it!), but I always check in OOC. I don't think I'm somehow better or less broken than others on here. If people give notice and are upfront about delays and issues they are having then yea, I'd be happy to play with them again. But like Roughtrade said in his post about interviewing the GM, how they treat players in the application process is relevant information for deciding whether to join their game, so is how they communicate their availability in past games.

Anyhow, to avoid going in circles, one point of The Myth-Weavers GM Talent Pool (which has a grand total of two GMs participating so far...) is to provide coverage for GMs needing a mental health break. Don't leave for 3 weeks and feel super guilty about it, get a sub! Let someone else keep the momentum going so you can return refreshed instead of slinking off feeling awful about yourself.

Edited January 18 by OzzyKP (see edit history)

[RedMax]

2 hours ago, Roughtrade said:

Yeah, you are sort of missing the point of mental health issues. For those afflicted with them it is not really a choice.

Yes. I agree with you. Well put.

[ChaosCircle]

To be clear, as someone with mental health issues, my choice is a slew of drugs that affect my physical health negatively in the long term vs. gambling I can hold things together with limited medication.

That is the "choice" quite a few of us face and even after dropping a mental health drug I am going to be on other drugs to keep me from being permanently disabled physically because of issues with one of my past drugs.

So yeah, we don't have the level of control a mentally average person does to even stay medicated heavily long term.

To be clear here, I do not have a grasp on reality during a mental health crisis and have ended up in psych wards. And still my psychiatrist is basically like "... Yeah. We are just going to gamble." As serious medical advice.

 

Edited January 21 by ChaosCircle (see edit history)

[forcemagnitude]

On 1/17/2024 at 9:18 AM, leons1701 said:

How many posts do you pin? What if you want something you didn't know you were going to need? Discord is a nice tool for some uses, it is nothing more than that.

For all uses, rather.

[Choomie]

I've been around the Weave in some shape or form for maybe ten years or so, that's how long it feels. I was able to experience games and commitments as a naive and immature teenager to now being something resembling a functioning adult in society. Likewise, I also have ADHD and depression and anxiety, so I can contribute my personal experiences to share my view on the topic of ghosting.

For me and for what I would assume to be everyone else here, writing is a hobby. When inspiration is there, it's relieving and refreshing. With ADHD, I'm sort of at the whim of the whole risk/reward thing. Until I was medicated, I found things like cleaning my bedroom or doing homework to be excruciating. It felt like my brain was telling me how painful it would be, how restrained I would feel, and how impossible the task would be. This led to a lot of procrastination, especially in school. When things would slow down, and I'd be bored, I'd try to join a game and submit an application. And since the vetting process can take weeks to a month, this might involve multiple applications to games, for all different types. D&D, Pathfinder, something indie, something niche. I'd join a medieval fantasy game, a science fiction epic, a gritty investigation, maybe. Then I'd run into three distinct issues: (1) I would lose inspiration, (2) I would 'genre-shift', or (3) I would give in to guilt, and I'd dread making a response much, much later.

The dreaded blank white page (or I guess what was the small, beige box) was really hard to overcome. It would sometimes be a very physical feeling. I knew it needed to be done, but with my mental health issues, and due to poor habits both stemming from having ADHD, and being a punk kid, I would often just do something easier, like playing a video game or eating a sandwich. And like others have said, things would come up, and when I would try again, I'd either be too busy or face that same issue.

Sometimes I would be in a fantasy game like Pathfinder, but one weekend my family would marathon some Star Wars movies. I'd have a hard time getting back in the groove and mentality of writing for a fantasy game because I wanted to do something with Star Wars. This shift would happen every couple of months, and it would also contribute to slow posting or my struggling to stay engaged.

Usually, once time had slipped by, I would feel humiliated having to come clean and let people know that I wouldn't be able to continue. It's hard. I don't know why it is, exactly, but it's like a specter in the room hanging over you.

Nowadays, I have empathy for people who ghost or are otherwise unable to continue. Yes, sometimes I've seen players drop games as a player or GM just to start up another one right away. Sure, to me that's in poor taste, but who am I to judge? I know that, if I'd ever have to leave a game, I'd want the same courtesy extended to me. All we can really do is encourage open communication; supporters will start/continue doing so, communicating if they're busy or will be away. Some people either need to learn/practice this skill, or they just aren't at a point where they are able to for whatever reason.

I guess for now we'll have to continue being patient with others.

[Kistler]

Responding to the first post:

I haven't played a ton in-person, and I've only been doing PBP for two years, but I still think there's some common stuff that should really be toned down in general in tabletop. I feel like there is a great deal of 'up your own buttness', wait there's a better term for that, self involvement that really dominates in PBP. You see characters with familiars or eidolons having whole conversations with themselves, being oh-so-witty and clever, but not talking to the rest of the party. You see protagonist syndrome to the fullest, sometimes just ignoring the rest of the party, sometimes treating them all like sidekicks or village idiots. There's also a fair share of people who enjoy optimizing and make single line posts, then roll a bunch of dice to smoosh the meeps and feel Good.

I've experienced two or three games with really good roleplay, and most of that was the right group with the right GM. I'm trying to think of the traits that brought those games to life. I do remember one time when someone actually asked about my character's backstory in-character, and it's crazy how rare that is. I actually was suddenly embarrassed to respond. (good thing I don't play in-person much...

DM/GM:

-Posted regularly (high post rate >3/week)

-Put effort into writing and description

-Worked with players on some past details with characters and involvement in the story. Minor stuff, but tied them in tighter. Sometimes even created links between them to encourage interaction.

-Make the small posts. One sentence answers to player checks or in conversations. Not always making a single weekly post that's a wall of text, but being quick to respond, even briefly helped things flow and included players without a 'dogpiling the roll' feel.

-Scary danger combat forced the party to work together and engage with each other

 

Players:

-Posted regularly (post rate matched the GM's high post rate and the other players')

-Put effort into writing

-Cared about the game

-Chatted with other players, even with casual one-liners at times, but acknowledged others were there and contributed

-Generally I recall 4 person more specialized parties where we didn't dogpile rolls

-I personally hate 'party leader' games, but it's almost like each scene needs a leader. Letting each person fill their niche and shine. Then others can comment on 'gawsh you did good at that, where'd you learn that?' instead of the normal dogpile the roll, move on with no comment when the obstacle is overcome.

 

I think it's largely about Sharing the Spotlight and engaging with others. But doing that in the loosey-goosey framework of PBP posting is a challenge without really high post rates all around.

[cailano]

31 minutes ago, Kistler said:

Responding to the first post:

...

DM/GM:

-Posted regularly (high post rate >3/week)

-Put effort into writing and description

-Worked with players on some past details with characters and involvement in the story. Minor stuff, but tied them in tighter. Sometimes even created links between them to encourage interaction.

-Make the small posts. One sentence answers to player checks or in conversations. Not always making a single weekly post that's a wall of text, but being quick to respond, even briefly helped things flow and included players without a 'dogpiling the roll' feel.

-Scary danger combat forced the party to work together and engage with each other

 

Players:

-Posted regularly (post rate matched the GM's high post rate and the other players')

-Put effort into writing

-Cared about the game

-Chatted with other players, even with casual one-liners at times, but acknowledged others were there and contributed

-Generally I recall 4 person more specialized parties where we didn't dogpile rolls

...

If you've got all that, you're going to have a great game regardless of the rest.

[Choomie]

That is such an awesome post @Kistler.

 

Maybe there's a disconnect between the players and their expectations. Some are there for the writing, some more for the gameplay?

 

...now that I think about it, that really does seem like a rare occurrence, to be asked about your character's history in-game. I'm going to have to start doing that more.

[Malkavian Grin]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:52 PM, Choomie said:

Usually, once time had slipped by, I would feel humiliated having to come clean and let people know that I wouldn't be able to continue. It's hard. I don't know why it is, exactly, but it's like a specter in the room hanging over you.

Damn, I feel this one. I've heard others talk about this effect. It snowballs day by day until you just can't face it anymore. I'm not proud to admit I've done it multiple times in my past. I don't do that anymore, but winter depression has made getting back into the groove really hard.

That specter is feckin' real.

[RedMax]

On 1/29/2024 at 3:08 PM, Kistler said:

Responding to the first post:

I haven't played a ton in-person, and I've only been doing PBP for two years, but I still think there's some common stuff that should really be toned down in general in tabletop. I feel like there is a great deal of 'up your own buttness', wait there's a better term for that, self involvement that really dominates in PBP. You see characters with familiars or eidolons having whole conversations with themselves, being oh-so-witty and clever, but not talking to the rest of the party. You see protagonist syndrome to the fullest, sometimes just ignoring the rest of the party, sometimes treating them all like sidekicks or village idiots. There's also a fair share of people who enjoy optimizing and make single line posts, then roll a bunch of dice to smoosh the meeps and feel Good.

I've experienced two or three games with really good roleplay, and most of that was the right group with the right GM. I'm trying to think of the traits that brought those games to life. I do remember one time when someone actually asked about my character's backstory in-character, and it's crazy how rare that is. I actually was suddenly embarrassed to respond. (good thing I don't play in-person much...

 

I laughed out loud at this post. You nailed it. As a player, I try to find a way to check out of the game if I'm in with a player who has full-blown 'Protagonist Syndrome.' When I am GM, I spend a lot of time trying to find diplomatic ways of writing posts to curb this behavior and boost the confidence of the group that it won't be allowed to continue unchecked.

Example: "@Trexthemarsupial: I dig where you're going with this, but it might come across as 'hogging the spotlight.' While I do indeed find your character's background intriguing, I think we should all aim for about 50 words per post, and give everyone a few days to chime in before doing up a second post. We may get into territory where 50 words won't be enough, but we ain't there at the moment. -The Esteemed GM"