Character creation discussion

[TheFred]

36 minutes ago, Sundust said:

Dedicated swimmers are constantly looking for places to swim, hence Find Water and Create Water.

Dedicated swimmers also sometimes wear clothes; should they all get Fabricate so that they can create their own?

Not meaning to rag on the suggestions any more, but they still ought to be somewhat linked to the skill IMO. I'd be fine to suggest, say, Grip of Iron (that's a power not a spell but you get the idea) for Climb because climbing typically involves having a good grip. Swimming itself doesn't really involve Create Water though. Find Water or Water Walking I could maybe see at a stretch (though I'd rather Water Walking for Balance I think).

[Steel Warrior]

Also, should we incorporate the "Dead Levels" enhancement that Wizard put out for various classes?
Dead Levels

Bard: The bard has ten dead levels but gains spells per day and spells known during each one of those levels (which can be considered special abilities in their own right). Still, certain prestige classes grant +1 level of arcane spellcasting at every level along with powerful abilities to boot. This means that minor abilities are permissible during each dead level.

Rally Performance (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a bard hones his skill as a public musician and can reroll a Perform check once per day, but only when attempting to impress audiences for the purpose of earning money. A bard must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. See the Perform skill description.

Refine Performance (Ex): At 4th level, a bard learns how to make his performances more appealing to the public of a prosperous city and is considered to have rolled at least a 2 on each d10 or d6 when determining how much money was earned each day from a Perform check. See the Perform skill description. At 5th, 7th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 16th, and 17th level, a bard is considered to have rolled 1 number higher on each d10 (for example, a least 3 at 5th level, at least 4 at 7th level, etc.). By extension, a bard is considered to have rolled at least 3 on each d6 at 7th level, at least 4 at 11th level, and at least 5 at 16th level. At 19th level, a bard earns the maximum amount of money for his performance.

Cleric: The cleric has nineteen dead levels, but this is mitigated by their one and only special ability: turn or rebuke undead. The turning damage for this ability steadily increases every level (2d6 + the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier). Still, a prestige class that grants +1 level of divine spellcasting, normal turn or rebuke undead advancement, and special abilities at every level opens the door for a minor dead level ability.

Undead Intuition (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a cleric can identify undead creatures during an encounter from any distance. The cleric gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (religion) checks to identify undead creatures, but gains no insight about their special powers or vulnerabilities. See the Knowledge skill description. Moreover, the cleric can make these Knowledge (undead) checks untrained. This bonus increases by +1 for each cleric level the character takes after 2nd level.

Fighter: The fighter, with nine dead levels (one at every odd level), has one of the most logical progressions of special abilities. They gain a bonus feat every two levels if you imagine the first bonus feat to be granted during a conceptual "0" level for apprentices. As an option-based class, their dead level abilities also incorporate a degree of choice in keeping with the overall fighter level design.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.

Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items.

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces.

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march.

Paladin: The paladin has eight dead levels, none of which occur until 7th level. Despite being front loaded with special abilities, paladins gain smite evil and remove disease for the remainder of their levels, along with a special mount and minor spellcasting abilities. Despite these abilities, paladins still gain nothing except for base attack bonuses, hit points, and skill points at 7th and 13th level. Their dead level ability comes with two choices, the first of which has a prerequisite.

Righteous Cause (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a paladin is either rewarded with a bonus to form a lawful community or route out duplicitous intent. The paladin gains an additional bonus at 8th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, and 19th level. The bonus must be drawn from one of the following two abilities.

Inspiring Presence (Ex): A paladin can become the rallying standard for decency and fairness. If a paladin takes the Leadership feat, the character gains +1 to her leadership score, but only for the purpose of attracting 1st-level followers.

Discerning Insight (Ex): A paladin can recognize when a person is trustworthy or not, giving the character a +1 bonus on Sense Motive checks when trying to get a "hunch" about the subject's personality after a 1-minute conversation .

Ranger: Level 12+ no point in posting.

Rogue: 14/20th no point.

Sorcerer: The sorcerer, similar to the cleric, has nineteen dead levels. The sorcerer parts from the cleric, however, in that new spells known are gained at every level (which can be considered special abilities in their own right). Still, a prestige class that grants +1 level of spellcasting and special abilities at every level makes a minor dead level ability infinitely possible.

Magical Affinity (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a sorcerer can identify a certain creature type during an encounter by virtue of inheriting his magical ability from a member of that creature type. The type must include at least one creature with an arcane spell-like ability (such as dragon, magical beast, or outsider). Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. The sorcerer gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (arcana) checks to identify such creature types, but he gains no insight about their special powers or vulnerabilities. See Knowledge. Moreover, the sorcerer can make these Knowledge (arcana) checks untrained. This bonus increases by +1 for each sorcerer level the character takes after 2nd level.

Wizard: The wizard has fifteen dead levels, but she shares a lot in common with the sorcerer in that new spells are gained at every level (which can be considered special abilities in their own right). The primary difference between the two classes is that while sorcerers lose nothing by taking a prestige class granting +1 level of arcane spellcasting at every level, wizards miss out on up to four metamagic or item creation feats. As such, wizards are granted the least significant dead level ability.

Animated Script (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a wizard can magically animate the writing in their spellbook, causing the inked symbols and words to migrate across the page. Doing so increases the Spellcraft DC for another wizard attempting to decipher or prepare spells from their spellbook by the inscribing wizard's Intelligence modifier + 1 at the cost of 5 gp per inscribed page. See Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or Scroll. For each level in which the character does not gain a bonus feat after 2nd level, the wizard can increase the Spellcraft DC by +1 at the cost of an additional 5 gp per inscribed page (for example, +2 for 10 gp per page at 3rd level, +3 for 15 gp per page at 4th level, +4 for 20 gp per page at 6th level, and so on). The inscribing wizard can will their animated writing to stop, at which point the Spellcraft DC to copy a spell from another's spellbook returns to normal (DC 15 + spell level).

Edited March 6 by Steel Warrior (see edit history)

[Nameless Void]

2 hours ago, Sundust said:

Dedicated swimmers are constantly looking for places to swim, hence Find Water and Create Water. I actually have a competitive swimmer in my family who won't visit her grandparents just because they don't have a pool nearby. A slew of family members went Googling for pools and otherwise searching for lakes, ponds, etc., to try to appease her... Water Walking and Control Water are meant to be fantastically thematic. The swimmer has become so in tune with water, so at one with the waves, the feel, and whatever magic one might associate with the sea, lake, or river (ley lines, lifestream, etc.), that the swimmer has learned to master water itself (or be at one with it) magically. If we were just talking about improving one's skill in the physical act of swimming, that's what additional training - adding ranks - does, as well as things like like flippers.

As an ex-national level competitive swimmer who trained twice daily, had friends who won medals on the international stage and some-one who is still involved with the sport this seems both extreme and disturbing... I hope some-one in your family had a serious discussion about this level of intensity and lack of empathy for her grandparents.

I'm not ragging on your suggestions either but many of these seem like very magical effects. Should not Extraordinary Skill abilities perhaps come close to, but not replicate, magical abilities/spells? Creating something from nothing is not extraordinary, it's wonderous/magical. Steels suggestion of Hold Breath is a great idea. Perhaps replicating Ex abilities is a worthwhile limit or if it replicates a spell, make it several times higher on the skill ability (e.g. True Seeing at 5th level on the skill list? Since it's a 6th level Arcane Spell cast-able by a level 13 Wizard, shouldn't this be a touch higher)?

Edited March 6 by Nameless Void (see edit history)

[Sundust]

Some suggestions are obviously generating contention, so I imagine those (among others), won't go anywhere. The idea is simply to give dalamb ideas.

 

[KellyCat]

@dalamb, before it gets lost in the mix, can I get your judgement on crafting items with a racial requirement? I am looking at the Bow Of Songs for what I would like to craft.

 

But with that, I hope to finish up the mechanics side of my character sheet tonight. Thank you very much!

[TheBard101]

@KellyCat, it's already been ruled on. He said that you could hire someone to make the item for you. So you can simply say that they were an Elf or whatever. You go witcherbadself!

[KellyCat]

Oops, apparently I am blind ^^;;;

[rorytheromulan]

To provide an example of the pet stat rework, here is my level 1 eagle. I took his stats and dropped 10 from each even ability, and 11 from each odd ability, to get the following modifiers per ability:

Str 0 Dex 4 Con 2 Int -8 Wis 4 Cha -4

These are not your new modifiers on sheet, these are going to modify the stats generated by the point-buy for the animal. So here is my point-buy for the eagle:

Str 8, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10

Then I added them together. What I ended up with is a slightly weaker, slightly more aware creature, with the following values changed:

Str 8, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 6
HP 4, Listen 5, Spot 17, Fort 2, Will 3

If I wanted to, I could have regenerated his stats without changing a thing. But the extra point to Spot could come in handy. Now I just have to keep him alive...

[Thramzorean]

Just as long as nobody tries to call Adalmar their pet dog I suppose 😄

[Avaday Daydream]

Didn't Adalmar just pretend to be Lastanor's pet dog in order to get into the inn without trouble?

[Barrigan]

2 hours ago, rorytheromulan said:

To provide an example of the pet stat rework, here is my level 1 eagle. I took his stats and dropped 10 from each even ability, and 11 from each odd ability, to get the following modifiers per ability:

Str 0 Dex 4 Con 2 Int -8 Wis 4 Cha -4

These are not your new modifiers on sheet, these are going to modify the stats generated by the point-buy for the animal. So here is my point-buy for the eagle:

Str 8, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10

Then I added them together. What I ended up with is a slightly weaker, slightly more aware creature, with the following values changed:

Str 8, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 6
HP 4, Listen 5, Spot 17, Fort 2, Will 3

If I wanted to, I could have regenerated his stats without changing a thing. But the extra point to Spot could come in handy. Now I just have to keep him alive...

If you've got Int 12 from point buy and -8 from modifiers shouldn't you end up with Int 4?

I guess as an animal it can't have an Int any higher than 2 but in that case wouldn't it be better to only spent points up to 10 and then allocate the other two to another stat?

[Steel Warrior]

8 minutes ago, Barrigan said:

If you've got Int 12 from point buy and -8 from modifiers shouldn't you end up with Int 4?

I guess as an animal it can't have an Int any higher than 2 but in that case wouldn't it be better to only spent points up to 10 and then allocate the other two to another stat?

One work around
 

Urban Companion

The fearsome animal companions who accompany some casters in the wild are indeed a boon in combat, but a hulking wolf or creeping tiger is out of place in an urban environment. Some characters believe that small and subtle is of greater value than massive and mighty.

Class: Druid or ranger.

Level: 1st (druid) or 4th (ranger).

Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain an animal companion.

Benefit: The character gains the companionship of a smaller but far more intelligent creature than she otherwise would have. This is identical to the sorcerer's ability to summon a familiar (PH 52), including all benefits granted and gained by the familiar, except as noted below. Her functional level for determining the abilities of the companion is equal to her druid level or one-half her ranger level.

She does not lose experience points if her urban companion is slain, and she requires only 24 hours to replace one who is lost.

Her urban companion has total hit points equal to 3/4 her own hit points, rather than half as per a familiar.

The urban companion gains the ability to speak with other animals of its kind when she has an effective master level of 1st, rather than 7th.

When she reaches an effective master level of 7th, she can speak with animals of her companion's kind, as per speak with animals. This is a supernatural ability that functions constantly, and it requires only a free action to reactivate if somehow dispelled.

[rorytheromulan]

Oh yes I probably should. I wanted to keep Intelligence at 2.

[namo]

3 hours ago, Avaday Daydream said:

Didn't Adalmar just pretend to be Lastanor's pet dog in order to get into the inn without trouble?

Ah, but that was his choice, and a temporary deception.

I have already planned the ramifications of that attempted pat, in case both Dorian and Adalmar get into the game. 😆

[Lord Foul]

1 hour ago, namo said:

Ah, but that was his choice, and a temporary deception.

I have already planned the ramifications of that attempted pat, in case both Dorian and Adalmar get into the game. 😆

Who's a good boy, then? Here, go fetch... 😁