Character Creation Q&A

[Yamazaki]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Hello, hello, two questions:

1) i'm a bit confused about the add, on one hand this game has one of the most sick powerful character creation rules i've ever seen, with all of this stuff one can build characters who are gods and you know it 😅 but then the game-add discourage game breaking characters, i understand there is a difference between being powerful and game-breaking but it would help to have some kind of benchmarks, i already see that there are no specific limits on skills given the dc 80 on some epic skill checks, but what about the rest? i think having an idea of whats low and whats high for the various key numbers(defenses, saves, attacks, spell dc ecc) would help form a party that is somewhat balanced with each other.

I can help with this one, in part because I've been in many Ark games in the past.

 

Arklytte prefers to have PCs that feel powerful from the get-go.  In part because it's easier to deal with PCs that are stronger than expected (because you can always give the monsters bigger numbers) than the other way around (because TPKs are a risk in this case), and because that can be a lot of fun for many folks.  Furthermore, the original campaign from which this is based on had the PCs start at level 15 as well (although not gestalt - that's an Ark preference there), and from what I remember of that campaign, you'll want that kind of power.  As for the skill numbers - I think he's posting that for reference, in case some characters can actually swing those numbers.  Some of that is achievable at this level without too much effort

 

In short, this meme:

 

Part the second: Benchmarks

Ark won't give you benchmarks to aim for, because he balances after characters are selected.  In fact, I'm willing to bet that he's not even going to look at actual character sheets until selections are made, because that's not how he makes his picks.  Instead, the method that he's used (and I've made use of as well) is to have all the selected players post their relevant stats, and compare between them - if someone outshines in too many areas, they may be asked to tone it down.  Or maybe someone will get a bit of help to bring them up to speed if possible.  It usually works itself out one way or another, though.  So don't sweat it for now - focus on the fluff of your character.

[relekorlagunis]

12 hours ago, Arklytte said:

@relekorlagunis As written, that Specialization is definitely OP compared to the other Incanter specializations (but, as I said, it's Co7S...which is all kinds of OP anyway).  However, I'm willing to allow it with the following changes.

• Veil Mastery: At 3rd level, the incanter’s mastery over the art of veilweaving grows. They gain knowledge of a veil of their choice and gain 1 point of essence. They gain knowledge of an additional veil and gain an additional point of essence at 8th level and every 5 levels thereafter as well.
• Extra Veil: At 8th level, the incanter gains the ability to shape an additional veil each day using the Veilweaving sphere. If they have given up the ability to shape veils (such as by the Essence Binder drawback), they may instead gain a single Veilweaving talent of their choice.
• Indestructible Veils: At 20th level, the incanter’s veils can no longer be sundered, suppressed or dispelled by anything less than the single-target option of the Greater Counterspell feat (or ability of similar power, such as the mage’s disjunction spell), an Antimagic Aura, or similar. In addition, they cannot have their chakras or essence disrupted by the abilities of the Veilweaving sphere, and whenever they would suffer essence burn from a harmful effect originating from another creature, they can choose to ignore the essence burn. This does not allow them to ignore essence burn caused by their own abilities, or the abilities of an ally.

OK, this gives me the bulk of what I wanted and I can adjust my build as needed.  Thanks!

[TheFred]

Ability score modifications from race and class don't apply, but do those from size changes? Size changes would normally be temporary, in which case I'd assume yes, but what about e.g. the Shifter traits? Those function as talents which grant ability modifications, but would that count as being from a class?

 

Speaking of size, you've said we can become Large or Tiny for three potent or two phenomenal potent talents, but is there anything stopping us just from taking the Miniscule phenomenal potent talent in order to become Tiny? (Large requires two already)

I suppose it might still be preferable to spend three non-phenomenal potents, but not two phenomenal potents instead of one.

 

(Side note: am I the only one who finds all the many different types of Origin talents needlessly easy to mix up?)

 

Pretty niche/probably-irrelevant question, but what is up with Immediate Renewal? If a Fireball would grant me fast healing, I can instead gain health equal to... the damage it would negate? 🤨

 

Also, couldn't help but notice...

Arklytte said:

Vancian Casting is strictly disallowed. If you choose to play a Vanilla class that has Vancian Casting, you must either choose a Spheres casting archetype, or an archetype that removes Vancian casting altogether. There are no exceptions to this rule.

...

This is a singular, specific exception to the No Vancian Casting rule.

[Arklytte]

16 hours ago, Rudra said:

Hello, hello, two questions:

1) i'm a bit confused about the add, on one hand this game has one of the most sick powerful character creation rules i've ever seen, with all of this stuff one can build characters who are gods and you know it 😅 but then the game-add discourage game breaking characters, i understand there is a difference between being powerful and game-breaking but it would help to have some kind of benchmarks, i already see that there are no specific limits on skills given the dc 80 on some epic skill checks, but what about the rest? i think having an idea of whats low and whats high for the various key numbers(defenses, saves, attacks, spell dc ecc) would help form a party that is somewhat balanced with each other.

 

2) the race creation rules play funnily with some standard pathfinder prestige classes that change a character type (a few even add templates, like a werewolf or an undead, possibly others but i dont know) how do they combine with your rules? 

1) Yama basically answered this, but I'd like to expand a bit.  IMO, the difference is mainly about the attitude of the player when creating their character.  If all you're concerned about is the mechanics, if everything about your character is all about how massively you can pile up numbers to get that perfect kill every round or have the perfect defense, or be just uber-optimized for one, specific function to make you 'unbeatable', then I have no interest in that character.

 

I want to see creative, interesting, and yes, powerful characters.  But I want them, first and foremost, to be characters.  As I said in the ad, the mechanics should serve the fluff.  With the options I've given folks, you should definitely have a powerful, badass character. But the mechanics should make sense in the context of your character's fluff and story, then should make cohesive sense in that context.

 

I know that's a sort of fluff and imprecise answer, but I do hope it helps clarify my thinking on the subject.  🙂

 

1a) AFA benchmarks, again, 'what Yama said'.  I dont actually care just how individually powerful your characters are.  I can make challenging encounters for your characters, no matter what their mechanics, because I not only have access to all the same mechanics y'all have...I can cheat.  🙂  What I care about is internal balance, within the party.  I dont want a group where one member is so all powerful that I risk a TPK on the rest, just to be able to challenge the one UberBadass.  I also dont want one character to be significantly weaker than the rest in some critical area, so that all the challenges have to be walkover for the rest of the party because I'm worried about killing the one person every encounter.

 

When the time comes, and I've picked a team, I'll post a 'Balance Thread' where everyone will post a bunch of their mechanics, both 'resting' (with all day buffs), and 'nova' (where they pull out all the stops, all the temp bonuses, etc).  For this game, that will also include a magical and non-magical section.  Then, if any sort of tweaking needs doing, I'll work with the final team to make the necessary tweaks, then we'll play.  Obviously, things might need additional tweaking as we go, but I've found that this method generally produces a fairly well balanced party, where everyone can contribute, and I can make challenging encounters that everybody can, hopefully, enjoy.  🙂

 

2) I'd probably need to know what, specific example you're looking at, so I can read up on all the relevant info.  Mostly it's going to probably require some specific, individual adjudication.  🙂

 

 

Hope that helps!  🙂

[Arklytte]

15 hours ago, Yamazaki said:

 

I do love that meme!  😄

14 hours ago, relekorlagunis said:

OK, this gives me the bulk of what I wanted and I can adjust my build as needed.  Thanks!

Welcome.  🙂

12 hours ago, TheFred said:

Ability score modifications from race and class don't apply, but do those from size changes? Size changes would normally be temporary, in which case I'd assume yes, but what about e.g. the Shifter traits? Those function as talents which grant ability modifications, but would that count as being from a class?

 

Speaking of size, you've said we can become Large or Tiny for three potent or two phenomenal potent talents, but is there anything stopping us just from taking the Miniscule phenomenal potent talent in order to become Tiny? (Large requires two already)

I suppose it might still be preferable to spend three non-phenomenal potents, but not two phenomenal potents instead of one.

 

(Side note: am I the only one who finds all the many different types of Origin talents needlessly easy to mix up?)

 

Pretty niche/probably-irrelevant question, but what is up with Immediate Renewal? If a Fireball would grant me fast healing, I can instead gain health equal to... the damage it would negate? 🤨

 

Also, couldn't help but notice...

Temporary bonuses from spells always apply, as per the notes in the stat section.  So if an Alteration talent gives a temp boost, it applies as normal.

 

re Minuscule: Huh...I didn't realize that was a thing.  I thought the only Size related Origin talents let you act like you were a different size (ala 'Tremendous' or 'Improved Natural Weapon').  I think what I'm going to rule is that my original costs for size change stands, but if you want to go uber-tiny, you can take Minuscule ON TOP OF spending the Phenomenal Potent talents to get to Diminutive, and become Fine.  But otherwise you cant take Minuscule.  EDIT: I just updated the rules to reflect this.

 

(Side Note: No, you definitely are not. :))

 

Immediate renewal. It's the difference between immediate healing and drawn out healing, I guess.  Like so many other Spheres talents, it's written...oddly.

 

re: Exceptions: 😛

Edited June 28, 2022 by Arklytte (see edit history)

[Valdimarian]

How do you feel about pregame crafted items? I’m looking at the Blacksmith for character reasons (burly dude hitting things) and they get Craft Wondrous and Craft Magic Arms and Armor as bonus feats. 
 

Edit: bonus question about the FCB, do we have to pick the same race or can we pick an FCB rom two different races? 
Edit2: finally got to the part of the Origin system with generic FCBs. Can we take a specific race’s FCB instead? 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Valdimarian (see edit history)

[TheFred]

7 hours ago, Arklytte said:

Temporary bonuses from spells always apply, as per the notes in the stat section.  So if an Alteration talent gives a temp boost, it applies as normal.

I guess my confusion is that the Shifter traits aren't temporary. It feels that they ought to count then just as stat boosts from a class? But that also kinda seems odd that they'd not function the same as the talents they're meant to function as. This also applies to Permanent Transformation I suppose.

7 hours ago, Arklytte said:

re Minuscule: Huh...I didn't realize that was a thing.  I thought the only Size related Origin talents let you act like you were a different size (ala 'Tremendous' or 'Improved Natural Weapon').  I think what I'm going to rule is that my original costs for size change stands, but if you want to go uber-tiny, you can take Minuscule ON TOP OF spending the Phenomenal Potent talents to get to Diminutive, and become Fine.  But otherwise you cant take Minuscule.  EDIT: I just updated the rules to reflect this.

Tremendous also actually changes your size if you take it twice... but then that's two phenomenal potent talents, which is the same rate as what you were charging, so I don't think it matters so much. (Essentially, getting Tiny is cheaper than getting Large which... I guess makes sense, maybe; Large is better than Small but I'm not sure if it's better than Tiny, but hey)

[TheFred]

Instantaneously-created stuff like Wall of Stone isn't affected by Antimagic Fields, so I assume that a lot of the Creation Sphere isn't, too?

 

Undead usually aren't affected by Antimagic Fields (well, corporeal ones, though some of their abilities might be shut down). Are undead reanimated by the Death Sphere? Or would they only be immune if you take the Permanent Undead advanced talent, which turns it into an instantaneous effect? (I would expect that, actually, just checking)

 

On that note, are all instantaneous effects unaffected, since they're over by the time they're subjected to an AmF? So, for example, the Permanent Transformation Alteration Advanced talent which is (against anyone's better judgement) instantaneous too.

 

(Note necessarily trying to dodge the AmF eyes completely, but it seems like these may come up... 🙂)

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by TheFred (see edit history)

[Valdimarian]

Most of Creation sphere’s Alteration side is probably fine as an Instant, but the Create side has a time limit, so it’s not Instant until you get the Create Materials advanced talent. 
 

(I did contemplate adapting my Electrokinetic for a second or two. If he can get out of AMF range he can just Yeet coins at 500 MPH at the Beholder) 

 

Edit: is there any way to get more Phenomenal Talents? I know you said we can trade a Fest for a Potent (and a Combat / Power Talent for a Utility?) but there seems to be a cap on Phenomenal. 
(minor nitpick, it’s Specialized Training that gives the bonus feat, Expansive Training gives one skill ranks equal to your level) 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Valdimarian (see edit history)

[Duqueen]

I might have missed it, but the limit on ability scores increases also include any that come from templates (dragon disciple)? All increaes would become feats? Does the size of the increase grant more/less feats?

 

Is all the spheres wiki available? No akashic classes, but what about pact magic? Is the material from city of 7 seraphs available? High aspirant seems even stronger giving 5 feats for the measly inherent bonuses it gives.

[Yamazaki]

36 minutes ago, Duqueen said:

Is all the spheres wiki available? No akashic classes, but what about pact magic? Is the material from city of 7 seraphs available? High aspirant seems even stronger giving 5 feats for the measly inherent bonuses it gives.

This I already know the answer to - Nope!  It's just the Spheres of Power/Might/Champions content.  Furthermore, Ark made a distinct point to ban all the City of 7 Seraphs content, obvious balance reasons (also because it uses content from banned material as well).

[Rudra]

10 hours ago, Arklytte said:

2) I'd probably need to know what, specific example you're looking at, so I can read up on all the relevant info.  Mostly it's going to probably require some specific, individual adjudication.  🙂

Fair, it's just that i'm wrestling with several character concepts so there isnt one specific, but two specifics😅

first, the most extreme, is "my" banshee, tried once in the past , it actually work better with the alignment removal but worse for the rest. It's a character that begin old and take Fiendish obedience to Mestama, the exalted boon turn you into a ghost which is a cr+2 template,  but the current race creation rules and attribute rules would play funny with it(undeads have no con score) i think a reasonable fix would be to use a base human(with no attribute boosts+ghost template with no attribute boosts) instead of creating a race(counting the ghost template as the sphere race, power wise they are close i think) and reduce the attribute points by 1/6 to account for the missing con.

 

second is a character who take the sanguine angel prestige class, at level 10 it change the character type to outsider(evil,extrapalar and lawful) and give some bonuses, i dont know how that would play with the absence of alignment(the prestige class itself require certain alignments to enter) and i dont know how the change would affect race creation

 

 

[Steel Warrior]

I was wondering.
Is there anything other than "animal" or "magical beast" that would prevent a player from taking these feats for themselves?
I mean, even the wording could suggest lol.

Narrow Frame

Your excellent coordination allows you to maneuver better in close quarters.

Lithe Attacker

Your unmatched grace allows you to strike even from the tightest crevices.

I can see how a large character might find these feats useful 😛

[Niblooey]

2 hours ago, Steel Warrior said:

I was wondering.
Is there anything other than "animal" or "magical beast" that would prevent a player from taking these feats for themselves?
I mean, even the wording could suggest lol.

Narrow Frame

Your excellent coordination allows you to maneuver better in close quarters.

Lithe Attacker

Your unmatched grace allows you to strike even from the tightest crevices.

I can see how a large character might find these feats useful 😛

This doesn't directly answer your question, but the Athletics sphere has the Canny CompressionCanny Compression [SA:MT2]
When using the movement mode corresponding to a package you possess, you can move through areas as small as half your normal space without squeezing and can move through an area as small as one quarter your space when squeezing.

If you possess at least 10 ranks in a skill package you possess, you can move through an area as small as one-quarter your space without squeezing or one-eighth your space when squeezing when using the associated movement type. Associated Feats: Serpentine Compression, Narrow Frame. talent which does something similar. You'd still take penalties for squeezing, but you won't count as squeezing until you're stuck in a space 1/8th your size, which is a bit tighter than the feats normally allow. Only issue is you'd have to take 2 talents for it, since you need a package to use this with.

[Steel Warrior]

5 hours ago, Niblooey said:

This doesn't directly answer your question, but the Athletics sphere has the Canny CompressionCanny Compression [SA:MT2]
When using the movement mode corresponding to a package you possess, you can move through areas as small as half your normal space without squeezing and can move through an area as small as one quarter your space when squeezing.

If you possess at least 10 ranks in a skill package you possess, you can move through an area as small as one-quarter your space without squeezing or one-eighth your space when squeezing when using the associated movement type. Associated Feats: Serpentine Compression, Narrow Frame. talent which does something similar. You'd still take penalties for squeezing, but you won't count as squeezing until you're stuck in a space 1/8th your size, which is a bit tighter than the feats normally allow. Only issue is you'd have to take 2 talents for it, since you need a package to use this with.

Ah that works, thanks!
I figured as a Large Ettin character, I want to be large, but also take into consideration, close quarter fighting. I already have all the athletic talents, even the fly one lol.. Don't ask.. 😅

Edited June 29, 2022 by Steel Warrior (see edit history)