General OOC

[BobtheWizard]

@rogueblade0729 You said we needed to use an action to seek out Gror, but shouldn't we automatically detect him if he rolls stealth less than our passive perception?

[rogueblade0729]

1 hour ago, BobtheWizard said:

@rogueblade0729 You said we needed to use an action to seek out Gror, but shouldn't we automatically detect him if he rolls stealth less than our passive perception?

That's a very good question! The answer is both yes and no. Yes, normally this would be the case. If Grór was trying to sneak up on you, he would be rolling against your Passive Perception. However, the reason you are having to roll here is explicitly because you are in combat. When you're fighting, you are more focused on maneuvering through uneven terrain, coordinating with your allies, lining up swings or shots, fetching arrows from quivers or blades from scabbards, and so on, all while trying to avoid getting hit yourself! Due to these distractions, you don't get to passively assume a 10 on the roll in combat. That's why the original 5e designers included the Search action for combat in the first place.

It’s why higher level Rogues are valuable, because at some point they get Reliable Talent, meaning they never roll below a 10 on skill checks, even if they're in combat!

If you're curious as to why Grór can keep hiding at all, it's because he's using the light concealment / half cover offered by the snowy trees to dip out of sight and disappear in the blur of motion that is combat. He also has levels in Treasure Hunter, so he can Hide as a bonus action. If you all were out in a field or out in the open, he obviously would have nothing to hide behind.

Edited December 1, 2023 by rogueblade0729 (see edit history)

[BobtheWizard]

I hope this comes across right. I am not pouting or trying to get you to change your ruling for this fight. You probably balanced this encounter on this ability, so I don't think we should change it here. But as long as you are fine participating, I like hearing how DMs come up with rulings when the rulings are different than other games.

Your answer above is not how I've ever seen it ruled for PC rogues or goblins. I'm fine playing it this way here, but I don't think your interpretation can be applied to other games. Your ruling says that a natural 1 stealth roll against a +20 perception modifier still successfully hides unless the enemy uses an action to search. Here's JC on stealth in combat and passive perceptions being always on even without the search action. Then the search action is only needed for something that exceeds your passive perception.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/2793-stealth-advice-from-jeremy-crawford

He does qualify everything with "the DM gets to decide" so you are perfectly within your right to run it this way.

As far as light concealment, the only common things I can think of that give you the ability to hide in light concealment are wood elves and the skulker feat. Light concealment is not normally enough to hide in. But Gror might have the skulker feat. If you allow anyone to hide in light obscurement, how do the wood elf and skulker abilities interact with that? Asking as someone playing a wood elf in this game.

Obviously everything is DM ruling, so I can roll with anything. I just like to know what the rules are so I get it right next time I DM or play a rogue. Thanks for humoring me.

[rogueblade0729]

@BobtheWizard

No, that's absolutely reasonable of you to ask. You're not coming across as pouting or anything like that.

I saw JC's comments on passive vs active perception. I just didn't immediately agree with them because of the Rogue's Reliable Talent, as stated above. Also, I have never seen the Search action used properly in any of the 5e games I've ever played during combat, so I wanted to give it a try in this encounter. I thought it would pose an interesting challenge for you to overcome, instead of just having Gror rush in with the rest of them or just shoot at a distance. It's totally possible I just misinterpreted the rules here.

With light concealment, I set up this encounter with the thought that it would be enough for anyone to attempt to hide in, since it imposes Disadvantage on Perception checks. Gror is not super high level, and AiME and LOTRRP don't allow base 5e feats, so technically you would be correct. Your interpretation of Elves of Mirkwood being able to hide in light concealment implies that other Cultures cannot, including Gror's. While Gror does have a couple more abilities that you all have not yet seen, they wouldn't have worked the way I've been running his stealth this encounter.

So, it seems like I've just got egg on my face here. But I'll offer a solution. Let's say that, at the start of combat, the trees were more packed with snow, meaning creatures who attempted to hide in them were heavily obscured instead. Nothing from before changes. But, now that a few rounds have gone by, with the trampling of horse hooves, the swinging of weapons, and people shouting, the snow has partially fallen from the trees, making them grant only light concealment at the start of next round. If Gror is not spotted before then, he will become revealed to you all at initiative count 20. That doesn't mean he won't use any of his other special abilities, but he won't be able to hide normally for free.

That way, even though you do have a higher Passive Perception than his Stealth roll, you still wouldn't be able to see him because heavily obscured means you are totally blocked in line of sight, so you'd need to roll to see if you can hear him over the sounds of battle.

Edited December 1, 2023 by rogueblade0729 (see edit history)

[codexgigas]

@rogueblade0729 I'm perfectly happy if you say no (because it makes for more dramatic storytelling), but I wanted to ask if the Intelligence save was a place I could apply the alternate use of Amdiran's Foresight of Their Kindred ability: "If no such information is available, or the Loremaster prefers not to divulge it, once, before the current adventuring phase is over, you may choose to automatically succeed at an attack roll, a saving throw, or an ability check."

[rogueblade0729]

56 minutes ago, codexgigas said:

@rogueblade0729 I'm perfectly happy if you say no (because it makes for more dramatic storytelling), but I wanted to ask if the Intelligence save was a place I could apply the alternate use of Amdiran's Foresight of Their Kindred ability: "If no such information is available, or the Loremaster prefers not to divulge it, once, before the current adventuring phase is over, you may choose to automatically succeed at an attack roll, a saving throw, or an ability check."

I don't think Amdiran used his Foresight ability in this Adventuring Phase, since that only began when you left Bree with Tomas to find the treasure, not when you first set out to hunt the Troll. So yeah, you are allowed to use it! It's up to you, though.

[codexgigas]

On 12/2/2023 at 10:10 PM, rogueblade0729 said:

I don't think Amdiran used his Foresight ability in this Adventuring Phase, since that only began when you left Bree with Tomas to find the treasure, not when you first set out to hunt the Troll. So yeah, you are allowed to use it! It's up to you, though.

I haven't used the Foresight ability yet. I'd like to use it here. I'll make a slight edit to the post.

[rogueblade0729]

Well everyone, the time has come. 

Today I officially enter active duty service in the Air Force. I'm shipping out for my first duty station, and I should be arriving in a few days. As excited as I am to finally be moving on, it's also hard to leave behind my family. I may not even get home for Christmas this year.

Thank you all for being a part of my life, and I hope you all have a wonderful day.

[BobtheWizard]

Good luck! I was in the Navy, and it's a great adventure. Thank you for your service.

[grimlock]

Best of luck in your career! Safe travels, thank you for serving.

[rogueblade0729]

https://youtu.be/E09PD5vfXmg?si=JFts0zBPtKaI7xGb

If you'll indulge me, I feel this song very adequately explains my current mood.

[Papa Bear]

Thank you for your service and best wishes for you and your family. i'm sorry that you probably won't get to see them on Christmas (but you have a pretty good excuse!)

[codexgigas]

@rogueblade0729 Thank you for your service! I've had my share of working Christmases in healthcare (although likely not so far away from my family as you may be from yours), and while it isn't great, it doesn't have to be bad.

I hope the transition to the new duty station goes well!

[rogueblade0729]

Appreciate the well-wishes, everyone! I just need @Papa Bear's post, then we can move forward. :)

[Papa Bear]

Ignore me! Wrong Game

Nothing to see here.

 

BTW, OUCH!

Suddenly every attack against me this battle is 20 or better 😑

Edited December 9, 2023 by Papa Bear (see edit history)