SIDE:merging ship defeating logic

[wrathgon]

Zora calls all that was interested in the merging ship idea to one of the side meeting rooms to start to brain storm how to attack the logic of the Sim AI. ZORA got the command it gets to build ships.

 

When a user earns a ship build stock ship from nanamachines to these specifications and award ownership. Apply cost of building ship as debt over 40 years to be paid. If gains multiple ship assignment reduce debt by 25% for each assignment after first and add 10 years of age when building. If has 5 assignments own ship outright and build as if ship is 40 years old.

 

"So we need to defeat its logic to allow me to supply Plans instead of stock value. If we can change materials as well would be great I got some samples the nanomachines could use to base ships off but that would be 2nd objective so we need work on argument then test it vs an AI to see if will work. So let's here some..."

[evedgebah]

"I am interested in this. I've done a little prodding into the AI systems myself. There's some information I would like to have from them as well."

[darlis moonbeam]

Jake listens as Zora lays out what needs to happen before he speaks up. "I have some experience with hacking though I do not know much at all about AIs will need to find a weakness in its coding and exploit it. Any thoughts on how we might do that?" he gets a thoughtful look on his face as he thinks of something else he needed to tell them from his call with his wife. "Not sure if any of you have thought about what we do after we leave this island, however my wife has offered sanctuary to the entire crew. If you wished to accept it.

[wrathgon]

20 hours ago, evedgebah said:

"I am interested in this. I've done a little prodding into the AI systems myself. There's some information I would like to have from them as well."

Zora shakes her head " This is not a data dive here, or a hack those things will be impossible to pull off with the other AI still around. What we need is logical augrements to convicte Sim AI to give us custom ships are the same as stock ships. We got to beat its logic and overcome its augrement why we can't do this.

 

Ps: it's not only crew here there are a few others mix in to keep things random.

[Sohala]

Having previously listened to the spiel, Prax watched and waited. Borin stood by her side, his patience wearing thin. She hadn't inquired about whether he had a vessel of his own, as she knew he'd never pass up an opportunity to tinker with ships, especially before they were constructed.

As voices advocating for various courses of action were pushed aside, and the discussion circled back to Zora's original point, Prax deemed it a fitting moment to speak up. "How do we defeat the logic of something that was old before this cycle began?" Fighting logic felt like a futile endeavor, particularly when the logic string behind it was unknown. A more constructive approach might be to demonstrate that the established logical tenets were outdated. "Do we understand why it only constructs ships in a specific manner?"

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Sohala (see edit history)

[Grudge]

"If it's true AI because it logically concluded it is the best option, why it is concluded that would be a question for it, not people." Samuel almost stalks into the room. "Hello, I see we're on the beautiful new planet again." He stops near the Jake and crosses his hands. Adding without looking at him "Damn you got old."

Edited October 31, 2023 by Grudge (see edit history)

[darlis moonbeam]

Jake gives Samuel a lopsided grin "Well Sammy, you know blood makes me squimish, so your trick doesn't really work for me. I got married and domesticated too." he chuckles as he says this as he knew Samuel hated when he called him Sammy. Of course he knew that Samuel knew that he knew too which made it funnier. He looked around the room realizing there were others here other than the crew, and it might be better if he kept the joking with the crew to a minimum as they technically were not supposed to know each other. He glances at Prax as she speaks and gets a thoughtful look on his face as he contemplates her question "Well if I was hacking a computer system I would put it into logical loop, but I am guessing that might not work with an AI, perhaps instead provide it with something so illogical it can't really compute how to articulate the argument." he gives her a warm smile, "I am Jake by the way, I do not think we have ever met. Some of these others I have met in the Sim before." hopefully that explanation would cover some of their gaffes of familiarity.

Edited October 31, 2023 by darlis moonbeam (see edit history)

[Drunva]

 

Farhvan thought for awhile before chiming in. "To be honest an actual AI isn't something sensible people have around, but since we're here I guess we'll have to muddle through. He tilted his head back and forth mulling over the several options currently offered. "Honestly I don't think we'd be able to lock it up with a loop, especially since we don't want to crash it, we want to convince it that we're right." He nodded the Prax, "Coming at it from a different premise might work if we can figure out why it's decided to do what it does. I suppose we might be able to start insisting that the offered plans are not adequate. Thus logically an alternative schematic might be required?"

 

 

OOC/Mechanics

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sohala]

Samuel and his interaction with Jake got a sidelong look from Prax. She gave the uniformed individual a quick look when directly addressed, her gaze lingering on his face and insignias. An extra breath-length pause later, she gave him a salute of difference, "Rina, Commander. I believe I caught one of your lectures on leadership." There was another barest pause and she continued, "Your handling of the trolls in the [insert historical reference] as a lieutenant was held as an example of reading a situation. I can't say I would have risked my flank as you did, but it did work out for you."

Given Zora's claim to have the commands to start production, Prax waited for further details.

 

[Grudge]

Samuel gives Jake a sideglance "You WHAT! I wanted to look for you when we went in, but by the time I got my life in order I got commissioned. After that, he nods at Jake's uniform. You know. In the military, you don't exactly go where you choose."

He looks at Prax "As you were. I don't know about Mr. Ace Pilot here but it's been 16 years since I was last saluted except from manners from my former subordinates." His eyes briefly glaze over as he remembers things "Being Lt. was the most fulfilling part of my army career. After that next time I saw the battlefield I was already Colonel General, and god forbid Mr. Colonel General to get hurt. There are too many papers to sign, and too many soldiers to send to die. I think that's why I mustered out as soon as I got the rank of General."

"Although, that ended a bit messy." He lowers his voice and whispers to Jake "Last year in Sim I melted the guy by accident." He returns to the point looking at Farhvan "Sensible people don't create Vampires either yet here we are. But to cover that avenue, in that case answer to Rina's question is even simpler, false AI does what is programmed to do. So the answer is either it works as intended, or all-time shenanigans messed up its logical circuits and its malfunctioning. Ironically, while I agree with your sensibility in principle, I would prefer true AI. It, through tedious and long conversations, could be made to change its logical conclusion. False AI..." he shrugs"...I wouldn't even know where to start, since in that case reprogramming it would be the only solution."

Edited October 31, 2023 by Grudge (see edit history)

[wrathgon]

Zora seems annoyed by the off-topic batter address Jake and Samual " Keep this to the topic at hand you two!" Addressing them with a familiarity they shouldn't have, some of your notes.

She addresses Prax "WHY? Why do any machines do what they do, cause they are programmed to. With true AI they have the means to grow above their programming, but this AI does not, its a shell, a running program that follows set instructions, it's like a starship, you plot a jump course and it follows the path, the pilot can't deviate from the set path like he is flying a ship, the ship jumps and follows the course." She pauses to see if that sinks in, she knows Jake will get it but is not sure others have flown in this manner, as none other than the crew would have ever used a jump drive, but all should have learned about them.

At that point, a well-dressed Theo enters the room. Sporting a 3 piece suit and styled hair he quietly stands at the back giving a nod to Zora.

 

"So I think you all misunderstand the problem we will have. We cannot hack the AI, no one here even the great Enoch could do that without bringing down a ton of robots on our heads, plus what would be breaking the laws of this place! I am not advocating breaking any laws here people, i am talking about getting the program to allow us to design our own ships, there is nothing insidious about this."

 

She takes a deep breath and tries once again to explain " So let's try this. Say you tell your housekeeper would does your shopping you want some applies and send her to the shop to get them. Now when she gets to the shop there are 3 different types of apples. You did not say which you wanted but she knows you always buy the red ones. So the store clerk got an overstock of green apples and has told my boss to push the sale of them, so after speaking to your housekeeper saying the green ones are similar to the red in taste and flavor and are on sale for 50% off the housekeeper buys them instead. When she returns to you are you upset? did she not follow your instructions and save you money? That is the sort of thing we need to do. We need to be the clerk convincing the housekeeper that she is following the directions even it is not exactly how it is laid out. "

 

Again she pauses to see if it has sunk in. "What we need is either a plan with already scripts prepared to get this down, OR someone that can think on their feet and be able to on the fly shoot down anything that AI comes up with that would stop it from accepting this. As we do not know much about each other, it is hard to decide if anyone here has the 2nd skill, so having plans with augments ready is what I am thinking."

 

Hope this curbs all the useless talk in the group she waits for some actual progress on the project.

 

[Grudge]

Samuel carefully takes off his glasses and wipes them off not looking at Zora "So I was right, because that's exactly what I said, carefully rewind my sentence and tune down that lunatic screaming in your head that started when I made a personal talk with a person I technically haven't seen in 32 years until now. It's called catching up, learn it, and it will be of value to you in the future, also faking politeness. Now when your screams of rage are at comfortable 3-5 db, You'll hear me saying and I quote: "But to cover that avenue, in that case answer to Rina's question is even simpler, false AI does what is programmed to do."

"Sounds eerily similar to what you said, just more polite, remember lesson two "faking politeness." Now I also said that in that case, I wouldn't know where to start. So I added to the conversation to the fullest extent of my knowledge. Hence participating in conversation, while catching up at the same time, magic I know. And you said what I did but in a manner in which I currently speak. Another word for you: "Condescending." Also, remember that people usually poorly react to it, that's that feeling in your belly and the reason why your pressure is currently elevated. The last set of words for today is "small talk" If you engaged in it you'd find out that I don't have a ship because I melted the guy. I do have two ship shares and if they can help feel free to do with them as you wish. Now before you speak any of the multitude of words that swirl in that big brain of yours, I'd remind you that you don't outrank me, I'm the highest-ranked medical professional in this room and would wager ship. As such I would recommend mild sedative before resuming and saying something we both might regret."

He replaces his glasses and finally turns his cold blue eyes toward Zora "To recap." he lifts one hand and places it near his eyes "You're here, a specialist in your field." He lifts another hand and places it on the same level but parallel. "Here am I, specialist in my field, as you see lines are parallel, and our chains of command are different until we reach the Captain only person who can hush me with any except arbitrary authority. Your explanation does not need repeating because it was quite simple, what is not simple is just accepting it, as you may noticed, even before I entered question was not "What did you just say?" And again, not off point I mentioned it depends on which kind of AI it is. Now when that is settled, I will defer to Theo and Farhvan. I do haveSkill Computer 1 some knowledge of computers but not on their level. Or likely yours for that matter. My strictly just suggestion would be to conduct this in a two-pronged way, one would be those of my limited level of knowledge, and one up or down trying to just interface with it on the logic level to test the limits of its problem-solving skills and is there a way to bypass it or maybe soft lock it so those with more skill can do more invasive procedures. Others skilled in this would study both on hand and collecting in situ info, so we have both up-to-date schematics and what AI says or thinks that are up-to-date schematics. If we find two differ in some manner, then I'd ask my more learned colleagues, you included, if is there a way to exploit that route. Are you satisfied with this level of participation?"

Edited November 2, 2023 by Grudge (see edit history)

[Sohala]

Being dismissed by a grunt, ranked or otherwise didn't sit well with Prax, but she saw no reason to be uncivilized. Such a slight could be dealt with later if necessary. Her mask of professionalism held even as she stiffened at the mention of vampires.

Prax was curious how true Zora's assessments were for the ship assembly AI. As the conversation became rather animated and took several detours, she gave her shorter friend a look. His head tilted up to look her in the eye as his jaw moved subtly. They exchanged nods and he left for something more interesting.

Turning back, Samuel appeared to be winding down. When he had finished, she cleared her throat and then put up a holo-projection, hoping that adding pictographs might clarify things. A large square labeled 'AI' dominated the middle, with four smaller ones labeled 'Input', 'Facilities', 'Schematics', and 'Output' respectively. "You say we have control of this," The input brightened, "It must then take that and find the matching design(s), where they are then used for manufacturing, and a ship is the outcome." As she talked and gestured towards the graphics, directional lines lit up and shifted between each of the objects. She then looked in Zora's direction, "Do I have the right of that?"

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Sohala (see edit history)

[evedgebah]

Enoch speaks up after along period of contemplation.

"Zora is close to it. All thinking things have internal principles and logic they follow to make decisions. We must present a logical set of equivalents that the AI accepts either through its own tenets or via injection of data that it will interpret as its own and then accept. Inception, one way or the other.

An example would be to present snub or component ships that, with some modularity, would fit our desires and then slowly swap our suggestions for various equivalents until the AI accepts the aggregate sum we are interested in.

This entity will not waiver from its programming, but it is designed to accept inputs. That is the key to the manipulation. Our asks must be excruciatingly detailed and specific. We may also be able to use our inputs, to build a database of acceptable options in sequence such that we get gradually closer and closer to our desired ship design.

In the SIM, I went on a ship maintenance stint, so I have a little more knowledge now about such projects. Further, I did dabble with incursion into the AI systems. It's possible. Large-scale changes would not work, but small modulations or data injections are theoretically possible."

[darlis moonbeam]

Jake groans when Prax mentions him giving a lecture. "You had to endure that? Was it as painful for you as it was for me? You put me in a dangerous situation. I will figure a way out for me and anyone with me, but put me in a room full of people and told to speak, and I am a nervous wreck." he chuckles as she mentions his exploit with the trolls "That was a crazy situation, I just listened to my gut feeling. While it allowed me to survive, it made enemies that I can only assume still want to kill me. I never thought they would teach that at the Academy."