Character Creation Discussion Thread

[Faeryl_]

Ah yes, always something important to discover.

The thing about Mageknight is that it's a half-caster. Thus why it only ever gets 10 talents by level-up (not counting the bonus talents from the Casting feature); not unlike a Paladin. In place of a whole bunch of talents, it gets some fancy class feature options in the form of Mystic Combat that will help you customize better. Some of these might even synergize particularly well with certain spheres (don't quote me on this, it's just an impression I got from a quick glance). If you want more talents, you might be better off picking a different class.

That said, I wouldn't say any particular option is a "trap". Other, more min-maxy types might disagree, but from a casual's perspective any class can excel. Especially in this particular format. Not sure if any of this is helpful or if it's just nonsensical rambling...take what you will from my words. ;)

[Laird Ichofox]

Mageknight's main strength is in it's Mystic Combat abilities, as well as the variety in combat style the archetypes grant. 2 of my favourite archetypes in spheres are mageknight ones (Namely, Doomblade and Broadcast Blade).

[TheFred]

I think that getting so few talents is fairly normal for a full-BAB class, but obviously the examples you've mentioned trump that.

Mageknight is pretty cool, actually, and the Mystic Combats are really pretty good... but it's worth noting that the Extra Mystic Combat feat means that for the most part they're saving you a feat per two levels vs just taking two levels and a lot of that. Compare that with something like Conscript for example and it looks a bit eh (though note that the magic talents are probably worth more than the combat ones).

[Taggerung559]

I definitely wouldn't say mageknight is a trap (it gets very few talents, but has some decent class features to compensate. There's some mystic combats that are quite solid, resist magic is boring but spell saves are the ones you most often want to pass and it's an untyped bonus, etc), but in the very specific context of a gestalt game it's less desirable than it otherwise would be imo.

In a normal game, going mageknight 2 and then the rest into conscript (or other full BAB class of choice) means that while you keep the full BAB and can grab the extra mystic combat feat to grab any others you want, your caster level is going to stop scaling unless you also grab advanced magic training (another drain on your feats), and even then you don't get any more spell points per day which means you'll start running dry rather quickly. In a gestalt game you can have the other "side" be a full caster to negate that issue, so all you're losing from swapping over to a different full BAB class is the resist magic scaling and later class features while potentially gaining more from the class features of whatever you go into. It's still a solidly functional class, but the odds of there being better options goes up, and unless you're trying to keep things simple by avoiding multiclassing, want marked (which honestly is solid, -2 to target saves has even more potential when your other side is a full caster), or want a higher level class feature from an archetype (resizer's permanent size change at level 7 for instance) there's a decent chance sticking in mageknight isn't the most "optimal" choice (not that that means much).

[Yamazaki]

I don't know if it's been asked before, but how do you feel about trading feat progression for Skill Talents, as per this table? I ask specifically about doing this while having both Magic and Combat talent progression thru my normal classes.

 

Personally, I only would like to go Trained, to gain a handful of Skill talents to help flesh out my concept.

 

Alternatively, would it be possible to trade out my combat talent progression of one class for the equivalent skill talent progression? For example, I'm eying Inquisitor (Sphere/Soldier of the gods) as one side of my gestalt, and instead of getting Adept combat talent progression, but get journeyman skill progression?

Edited January 22 by Yamazaki (see edit history)

[TheFred]

4 hours ago, Taggerung559 said:

In a gestalt game you can have the other "side" be a full caster to negate that issue, so all you're losing from swapping over to a different full BAB class is the resist magic scaling and later class features while potentially gaining more from the class features of whatever you go into.

Because of the slightly bonkers Spheres-specific gestalt rules being a low-caster still gives you extra SP, and even more with a tradition, so it's not a total waste. Still, Mageknight 2-4 then get all the Mystic Combats you want from feats does generally seem better than progressing it (Stalwart/Mettle at L3 is worth sticking around for, mind you). There are some Mystic Combats that scale with level and a few (notably Whirl of Blows) with minimum level prereqs but there are also lots of good ones (Imbued Weapon, Penetrating Blow, Mystic Adaptation... ish, Swift Combatant, etc) which don't.

Even so, though, I actually like the Knightknight archetype a lot (despite being a sort of April Fool's joke, I believe, it's a pretty solid knight/cavalier/samurai type class). You're not a caster at all which is a big drawback but Gallantry is more point to spend on Mystic Combats overall throughout the day (so great if you're planning on spamming Penetrating Blow or whatever) plus you get some other little goodies. Interestingly, whilst you can't take things with casting prereqs, you can still take supernatural/magical options like Mystic Might. 🤷‍♂️

[Azerian Kelimon]

So here's an interesting question I don't think I've seen any answers on (please correct me if I'm blind and just missed it!): How well-known and established are our characters within Nexus? Obviously we're decently high leveled so we've got a lot of adventures under our belt, but in the grand scheme of things, where do we stand as far as the City of Cities is concerned? Are we considered relative rookies within the Realmwardens? Trusted agents? Are we well-known such that less senior Realmwardens discuss our jobs as tavern gossip, or are we just guys? Just trying to get a sense of how much leeway we have to 'paint in' details about the hub here, as opposed to just our homeworld.

[Rudra]

i did ask a similar question a few days ago, narrowed to the party instead of the whole nexus, the way i've built mine is that being a level 9 gestalt make you a rookie (this guild solve problems at a multiverse level! ) but i could be wrong, i too would like to know how our character are perceived and if they are new recruits or experienced wardens(or a mix)

[Azerian Kelimon]

Bonus question related to the above:

 

It's been said that the Leadership sphere (and Leadership-likes) are allowed. My question is, is the additional complexity something you're fine with, Saberfan? They do make combats and exploration more complex, since having a pack of Scoobies to command allows players to be in multiple places at once and get more done. If, for example, you'd prefer noncombatant followers to having to deal with cohorts, that might potentially change what talents I pick, since the goal is to make sure we all have a fun time and not just players.

[namo]

16 hours ago, CraziFuzzy said:

A little clarification/confirmation needed, as I'm looking to dip a toe into Spheres of Guile for the first time. There is no defined rule on how trading class skills for a trade tradition works with Gestalt - whether you trade the class skills from one class, or from both. The only precedent I can find is the way the spheres gestalt rules treat the similar thing for Spheres of Might, where you trade proficiencies for a martial tradition - in which case you trade BOTH class's proficiencies for the single martial tradition. I'm assuming the same would apply for Trade Traditions - trading away both class skill lists?

Yes - it's the only thing that makes sense.

But you get a Vocation trade talent every time you multiclass; IIRC Gestalt counts here too, so you have some compensation for the trade.

[CraziFuzzy]

2 hours ago, Azerian Kelimon said:

Bonus question related to the above:

 

It's been said that the Leadership sphere (and Leadership-likes) are allowed. My question is, is the additional complexity something you're fine with, Saberfan? They do make combats and exploration more complex, since having a pack of Scoobies to command allows players to be in multiple places at once and get more done. If, for example, you'd prefer noncombatant followers to having to deal with cohorts, that might potentially change what talents I pick, since the goal is to make sure we all have a fun time and not just players.

In my experience, one of the benefits of pbp is that more complex player turns are possible without hogging table time from other players, which is the reason many are against minion classes.

[Valdimarian]

19 hours ago, CraziFuzzy said:

A little clarification/confirmation needed, as I'm looking to dip a toe into Spheres of Guile for the first time. There is no defined rule on how trading class skills for a trade tradition works with Gestalt - whether you trade the class skills from one class, or from both. The only precedent I can find is the way the spheres gestalt rules treat the similar thing for Spheres of Might, where you trade proficiencies for a martial tradition - in which case you trade BOTH class's proficiencies for the single martial tradition. I'm assuming the same would apply for Trade Traditions - trading away both class skill lists?

I actually asked in Discord and they said that if you have one Trade Tradition you MUST trade out your skills from the other class for the +1 (Trade) talent.

[CraziFuzzy]

17 minutes ago, Valdimarian said:

I actually asked in Discord and they said that if you have one Trade Tradition you MUST trade out your skills from the other class for the +1 (Trade) talent.

Yeah, that's the rule for multiclassing - as once you've taken a trade tradition, it's assumed that class skills are ONLY from Guile mechanisms - so yeah, I guess it makes sense that in gestalt, that base assumption would still be there. So probably makes sense that the second class from Gestalt would at 'least' still count as a second trade tradition.

[CraziFuzzy]

Hilariously, I just went back to the wiki, and see this at the VERY bottom of the Trade Traditions page:

I don't know if I didn't see it before, or if it was added.. but there we go...

[Djacob91]

20 hours ago, Azerian Kelimon said:

Hi everyone! I'm looking at making a character and I had a question that maybe someone could help clarify for me (doesn't have to be Saberfan, this is more to see if my understanding is correct than anything else). I'm looking at creating a 'gish' type hybrid, combining magic and might into a single harmonious style, and for obvious reasons thought to look at the Mageknight to start off, but am noticing that even Martial Mageknights seem to only get the usual 10 default talents at 20 that the base Mageknight gets. Doesn't this make the Mageknight flat out worse at...well, pretty much everything than just about every other 'gish' class, due to having to make two distinct foci work on half the talents an archetyped specialist on either side would get (like an Elemental Fist Striker, or a Crimson Dancer, or...you get the idea)? Am I missing any secret sauce that makes it an equally valid choice to other options that are trying to achieve similar goals of allowing you to play a magical warrior?

Yea, the Martial Mageknight doesn't have anything that says that they get more talents to use, so they still only get the four talents(plus 2 bonus magic talents at first level) that they would get under the base class. As for whether they make good gishes, I would suggest against the Martial Mageknight. Some of the other Mageknight archetypes might be more appealing, notably the ones that focus on a specific magic sphere. They often get some bonus to caster level for that focused sphere. Otherwise, many of the Mystic Combat options are what you really want out of the Mageknight class. Things like Swift Combatant for a free action move or Quickened Reflexes for improved AC. There is also the Knightknight archetype, which trades out the magic part for better martial focus(its an Adept Practitioner, so its gets 15 Might talents by lvl 20). And you can still pick up the Magemage Prestige Class to get the magic back for the gish part. After that, I'd double check what you want the other class part to be. Which is to say decide whether you want to pick a dedicated magic class, a martial class, or one of the mixed ones. The Magus's Arcane Weaponeer archetype might be a good place to look, either to compliment the Mageknight or just take its place.