Questions

[Steel Warrior]

53 minutes ago, Grudge said:

I wrote, rewrote, and tried from several different angles to write this. From the point of fairness, light and jokingly, seriously, but all seemed disingenuous. I will say this. Spells are spells and Maneuvers are maneuvers. This is very far from Spell/Psionic parity. A number of maneuvers and the trees of them are basically based that you will drop lvl 1 versions of certain maneuvers for better counterparts. Every school has such trees from Diamond Mind, Blades tree, Desert Wind Dragon or Flame trees, to Stone Dragons Vices, and endurance trees.

So in my opinion, The Book Of 9 Swords is perfectly balanced as is, and messing it up will just ruin the already precarious balance of that book. If you want to see how that looks loot ar PoW in PF, and not to lie I prefer that almost Dragon Balz BS, but also here are rules clear at level 4 I can change my level 1 Shadow Hand maneuver for level 3 Shadow Hand Maneuver as long as I fulfill all other prerequisites.

Those that think they have found loopholes are more than welcome to come and break me, after all this is a gestalt already, breaking norms is the point and not kneecapping entire way of play.

They are not saying you can't use your normal level up's to retrain a maneuver you are capable of using at your current ch aracter level. They are simply saying that you can't pay gold to use the PHBII retraining to change a lower level maneuver for a higher level one.

[Delia2531]

3 hours ago, Blue Jay said:

No, they're completely separate rule sets, and they have different restrictions. The PHBII retraining rules don't specifically address maneuver retraining (obviously, because the writers lacked time machines), but the spell retraining rules seem perfectly suitable. Spell retraining says you can only trade out a spell for another spell of the same level, so that restriction is going to apply to maneuvers, as well.

Remember that the PHBII retraining rules are meant as a mercy for players who are unhappy with their earlier build choices. They're not meant to springboard you into a better character build. So, the retraining rules should never allow a character build that couldn't have existed without retraining.

There are some loopholes here, though:

1. There are no level restrictions on the prereqs, so it's technically possible to use a higher-level maneuver to qualify for a lower-level one. This means, as long as you swap maneuvers within the same discipline, swapping wouldn't have any effect on your prereq situation.
2. Of course, by strict RAW, the prereqs for maneuvers are apparently only checked when you first learn the maneuver: there's no stipulation that you lose the maneuver if you lose the prereqs. Personally, I feel like we should house-rule this so you do have to maintain the prereqs, but it's not RAW.

This!

 

but TL;DR this:

1 hour ago, Steel Warrior said:

They are not saying you can't use your normal level up's to retrain a maneuver you are capable of using at your current ch aracter level. They are simply saying that you can't pay gold to use the PHBII retraining to change a lower level maneuver for a higher level one.

 

When you use a feature of your class to change things about that class, it doesn't fall under "PHB2 Retraining"; where you want to change things about your build (swap feats, spells etc) then it does fall under "PHB2 Retraining".

[Grudge]

See I agree with this man who will not be @ less he transforms inside out 😋 But on the other hand, am not sure about @Delia2531 since I, as when Blue quoted me did not talk about PHB 2 retraining but Book of 9 Swords and (at least my copies of both books are printed in 2006 and are equally up to date. In that post (and I fully accept he misspoke or something because everything else is right and I agree with Blue says "Spell retraining says you can only trade out a spell for another spell of the same level" and continues "so that restriction is going to apply to maneuvers, as well." The underscored part is the one I have an issue with, maneuvers are incorporated same year as PHB 2 and have a clearly different way of changing maneuvers that are separate on account that two are not comparable as Psionics and Spells are, even to the point Invocations and Spells are. Maneuvers are completely different mechanics. Again. if what Steal Warrior says is right then I misunderstood something and I apologize I misunderstood what Blue wrote

Per the rules from the Book of 9 Swords, at lvl 4 I am able to exchange my lvl 1 maneuver for lvl 2 maneuver if I fulfill all prerequisites in good fate. (good fate being part of the "loopholes" Blue is referring to I believe, since there are some exploitable things and those should be denied by GMs)
 

Or to make a concrete example at lvl 4 I should be able to take my level 1 Shadow Hand maneuver Clinging Shadow Strike and exchange it for Drain Vitality level 2 maneuver.

Further on while I don't think official errata is ever published I think it is meant 1 maneuver per lvl (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12 th, 14 th, 16th, 18 th and 20 th. making it 9 maneuvers in total up to lvl 20

With understanding that part is my personal understanding, as the publisher never made it clear. Hence is in no way binding.

 

Edited April 17 by Grudge (see edit history)

[Steel Warrior]

34 minutes ago, Grudge said:

See I agree with this man who will not be @ less he transforms inside out 😋 But on the other hand, am not sure about @Delia2531 since I, as when Blue quoted me did not talk about PHB 2 retraining but Book of 9 Swords and (at least my copies of both books are printed in 2006 and are equally up to date. In that post (and I fully accept he misspoke or something because everything else is right and I agree with Blue says "Spell retraining says you can only trade out a spell for another spell of the same level" and continues "so that restriction is going to apply to maneuvers, as well." The underscored part is the one I have an issue with, maneuvers are incorporated same year as PHB 2 and have a clearly different way of changing maneuvers that are separate on account that two are not comparable as Psionics and Spells are, even to the point Invocations and Spells are. Maneuvers are completely different mechanics. Again. if what Steal Warrior says is right then I misunderstood something and I apologize I misunderstood what Blue wrote

Per the rules from the Book of 9 Swords, at lvl 4 I am able to exchange my lvl 1 maneuver for lvl 3 maneuver if I fulfill all prerequisites in good fate. (good fate being part of the "loopholes" Blue is referring to I believe, since there are some exploitable things and those should be denied by GMs)
 

Or to make a concrete example at lvl 4 I should be able to take my level 1 Shadow Hand maneuver Clinging Shadow Strike and exchange it for Shadow Garrotte level 3 maneuver.

Further on while I don't think official errata is ever published I think it is meant 1 maneuver per lvl (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12 th, 14 th, 16th, 18 th and 20 th. making it 9 maneuvers in total up to lvl 20

With understanding that part is my personal understanding, as the publisher never made it clear. Hence is in no way binding.

 

I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED! HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED!
Anyways, yes BlueJay was referring to PHBII in regards to retraining, that you can only trade the same level for same level.

He then referred to the class feature to replace a maneuver known at the following levels (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12 th, 14 th, 16th, 18 th and 20 th) could be broken.

As in. Say you're level 14 now, and you have 6 Shadow Hand manuevers. Lets say you want to get rid of your lowest Shadow Hand maneuver and it's a level 3 character maneuver. The next highest maneuver you currently have has a requisite of needing 2 other shadow hand maneuvers. Since you already have 5 other shadow hand maneuvers, you meet the requirement to get rid of the lowest one that didn't have any prerequisites. So you could technically have 6 maneuvers now that are 5th character level and above because, you traded out all the lower 1st, 3rd, 5th maneuvers between level 6,8,12,14.

Edited April 17 by Steel Warrior (see edit history)

[Grudge]

I made a mistake too it is not lvl 3 it is lv 2. But I am making a vanilla character right now (no additional feats or stuff like that that would interfere) Also I do agree that is abuse, but it is abuse it should not happen. It happens because PC's always looking to take the highest possible level maneuver (in your case 5th) there were maneuvers able to take legally if they didn't go for highest possible maneuver. but say extra lvl 4 or lvl 3. I will make my character together with standard Initiator Level. (1st-2nd lvl/maneuver lvl 1, IL 3-4/maneuver lvl 2 etc.) Class will be Swordsage because 1 I know it best and 2 on paper it should have largest lnumber of maneuvers.

Edited April 17 by Grudge (see edit history)

[Grudge]

4 hours ago, Steel Warrior said:

I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED! HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED!
Anyways, yes BlueJay was referring to PHBII in regards to retraining, that you can only trade the same level for same level.

He then referred to the class feature to replace a maneuver known at the following levels (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12 th, 14 th, 16th, 18 th and 20 th) could be broken.

As in. Say you're level 14 now, and you have 6 Shadow Hand manuevers. Lets say you want to get rid of your lowest Shadow Hand maneuver and it's a level 3 character maneuver. The next highest maneuver you currently have has a requisite of needing 2 other shadow hand maneuvers. Since you already have 5 other shadow hand maneuvers, you meet the requirement to get rid of the lowest one that didn't have any prerequisites. So you could technically have 6 maneuvers now that are 5th character level and above because, you traded out all the lower 1st, 3rd, 5th maneuvers between level 6,8,12,14.

This, technically. is not @ 😄

Swordsage Lvl 20 (Complete Without Progression)

Preface, while I did my best to adhere to all prerequisites around lvl 7, some maneuvers might've slipped. But that's on me and my back starting to hurt. Stay assured it would be possible to fix those mistakes fairly easily.

Level 3:

-Mind over Body

Level 4:

-Hand of Death

-Obscuring Shadow Veil

-Comet Throw

Level 5:

-Shadow Stride

-Dragon's Flame

-Soaring Throw

Level 6:

-Ballista Throw

-Shadow Noose

-Ring of Fire

Level 7:

-Salamander Charge

-Shadow Blink

-Inferno Blade

Level 8:

-One with Shadow

-Wyrm's Flame

-Fool's Strike

Level 9:

-Five-shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike

-Inferno Blast

-Tornado Throw

Extra Six:

-Bloodletting Strike (Shadow Hand Lvl 5)

-Enervating Shadow Strike (Shadow Hand Lvl 8)

-Fan The Flames (Desert Wind Lvl 3)

-Shadow Garrotte (Desert Wind Lvl 5)

-Enervating Shadow Strike (Shadow Hand Lvl 5)

-Shadow Jaunt (Shadow Hand Lvl 2)

 

Stances:

-Island of Blades

-Child of Shadow

-Dance of the Spider

-Step of the Dancing Moth

-Fiery Assault

-Balance on the Sky

 

 

Swordsage 1-20 progression (Stay Out Ye Shall Suffer)

Level 1:

-Clinging Shadow Strike---Gone---Exchanged for Shadow Noose

-Burning Blade---Gone---Exchanged for Soaring Throw

-Blistering Flourish--- Gone---Exchanged for Drain Vitality

-Sapphire Nightmare Blade---Gone---Exchanged for Inferno Blade

-Mighty Throw---Gone---Exchanged for Mind Over Body

-Charging Minotaur---Gone---Exchanged for Comet Throw

 

Level 2:

-Shadow Jaunt---Gone---Exchanged for Ring of Fire

-Emerald Razor---Gone---Exchanged for Fool's Strike

-Drain Vitality---Gone---Exchanged for Blistering Flourish

 

Level 3:

-Strength Draining Strength---Gone---Exchanged For Tornado Throw

-Zephyr Dance---Gone---Exchanged for Strength Fan The Flames

-Mind over Body---Exchange for Mighty Throw

 

Level 4:

-Hand of Death

-Obscuring Shadow Veil

-Comet Throw---Exchange for Charging Minotaur

 

Level 5:

-Shadow Stride

-Dragon's Flame

Soaring Throw---Exchange for Burning Blade

 

Level 6:

-Ballista Throw

-Shadow Noose

-Ring Of Fire---Exchange for Clinging Shadow Strike

 

Level 7:

-Salamander Charge

-Shadow Blink

-Inferno Blade---Exchange for Sapphire Nightmare Blade

 

Level 8:

One with Shadow

Wyrm's Flame

Fool's Strike---Exchange for Sapphire Emerald Razor

 

Level 9:

Five-shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike

Inferno Blast

Tornado Throw---Exchange for Strength Draining Strength

 

Extra Six:

-Bloodletting Strike

-Enervating Shadow Strike

-Fan The Flames---Exchange for Zephyr Dance

-Shadow Garrotte

-Enervating Shadow Strike

-Shadow Jaunt

 

Stances:

-Island of Blades (gotten at lvl 1)

-Child of Shadow (gotten at lvl 2)

-Dance of the Spider (gotten at lvl 5)

-Step of the Dancing Moth (gotten at lvl 9)

-Fiery Assault (gotten at lvl 14)

-Balance on the Sky (gotten at lvl 20)

 

 

To close, I did the build mostly as a thought exercise so it's far from optimized but it has 25 maneuvers and 6 stances of which 12 can be prepped. Also, to avoid chicaneries as at the 4th level changing 3 maneuvers I played by my understanding of the rules at all levels where maneuvers can be changed one for another, only one is eligible. So during the game, unless some feats, traits, and alike are taken just 9 maneuvers can be changed. Lastly, last level "Extra 6", as many of you know you reach level 9 maneuvers far before you reach level 20. And to answer why then don't take 4 levels 9's, For some I couldn't fulfill the prerequisite, some I wanted to have no matter the level (Shadow Garrotte) and some completed maneuver trees.

Edited April 17 by Grudge (see edit history)

[Rudolf]

Grudge, as your friend, I have to tell you’re missing out on the subtle nature of the English language here.
 

Everyone here agrees. You can swap maneuvers as a Swordsage in the normal way.
 

ALL of the discussion has been about phb2 retraining, and the discussion ONLY applies to PHB2 retraining. No one (except you) is taking about the normal class.
 

Does that make sense?

[Delia2531]

1 hour ago, Rudolf said:

Grudge, as your friend, I have to tell you’re missing out on the subtle nature of the English language here.
 

Everyone here agrees. You can swap maneuvers as a Swordsage in the normal way.
 

ALL of the discussion has been about phb2 retraining, and the discussion ONLY applies to PHB2 retraining. No one (except you) is taking about the normal class.
 

Does that make sense?

Exactly this; 'swapping maneuvers as you level up as part of a class feature' go for it; 'I picked the wrong feature and want to change it' - PHB2 rules apply.

 

We are all fervently agreeing with each other. 😀

[Steel Warrior]

I often have concepts rolling around in my mind and I came across the feat Initiate of Eilistraee when working up a CG Drow Paladin of Freedom. After seeing the requirements, at first I was like well, I wonder why not Paladin. Of course a "normal" paladin is LG, and Eilistraee is a CG Deity.

So could we assume that a Paladin of Freedom (CG), would actually qualify for this feat.

Initiate of Eilistraee ( Champions of Valor, p. 30)

[Initiate]
You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Eilistraee's church.

Prerequisite: cleric or ranger 4th, Drow or half-drow, patron deity Eilistraee,

Benefit: Once per day, you can spend one of the daily uses of your racial spell-like abilities (dancing lights, darkness, or faerie fire) to produce a magic missile effect (caster level equals class level).

In addition, you add the following spells to your cleric or ranger spell list.
Level     Spell
1st     Eilistraee's moonfire
3rd     lesser spellsong
6th (cleric only)     spellsong

[Grudge]

8 hours ago, Rudolf said:

Grudge, as your friend, I have to tell you’re missing out on the subtle nature of the English language here.
 

Everyone here agrees. You can swap maneuvers as a Swordsage in the normal way.
 

ALL of the discussion has been about phb2 retraining, and the discussion ONLY applies to PHB2 retraining. No one (except you) is taking about the normal class.
 

Does that make sense?

As I said sensei, I mentioned that in case I misunderstood and besmirched Blue's name I'll cover my head in ash and mourn for 40 days, and said I understood when Steal explained it but was again unsure when Delia added another post. All those are in my post from 14 hours ago. And while I do appreciate you coming to defend me by my misunderstanding of English, we have to accept that not all can be that. Sometimes I'm just wrong 😋

[Blue Jay]

16 hours ago, Grudge said:

...as when Blue quoted me did not talk about PHB 2 retraining but Book of 9 Swords and (at least my copies of both books are printed in 2006 and are equally up to date...

To be clear, I didn't actually quote you: I replied to @Sohala , and then to @Steel Warrior (has he been summoned again?). If you posted something else about maneuver retraining, I must have missed it. Apologies for the confusion.

Another note: "Retraining" only refers to the Retraining rules from PHB2. The maneuver-swapping rules from Tome of Battle are not referred to as "retraining", so I try not to call them that, specifically because it might confuse people. So, if I ever say "retraining", I'm specifically talking about the Retraining rules from PHB2.

On 4/16/2024 at 12:08 AM, Steel Warrior said:

They are not saying you can't use your normal level up's to retrain a maneuver you are capable of using at your current ch aracter level. They are simply saying that you can't pay gold to use the PHBII retraining to change a lower level maneuver for a higher level one.

At RFT, we are fairly generous with the retraining rules. We allow one free retrain option at each level, so it doesn't cost you any gold to use the retraining rules.

[Blue Jay]

5 hours ago, Steel Warrior said:

I often have concepts rolling around in my mind and I came across the feat Initiate of Eilistraee when working up a CG Drow Paladin of Freedom. After seeing the requirements, at first I was like well, I wonder why not Paladin. Of course a "normal" paladin is LG, and Eilistraee is a CG Deity.

So could we assume that a Paladin of Freedom (CG), would actually qualify for this feat.

Initiate of Eilistraee ( Champions of Valor, p. 30)

[Initiate]
You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Eilistraee's church.

Prerequisite: cleric or ranger 4th, Drow or half-drow, patron deity Eilistraee,

Benefit: Once per day, you can spend one of the daily uses of your racial spell-like abilities (dancing lights, darkness, or faerie fire) to produce a magic missile effect (caster level equals class level).

In addition, you add the following spells to your cleric or ranger spell list.
Level     Spell
1st     Eilistraee's moonfire
3rd     lesser spellsong
6th (cleric only)     spellsong

I like Eilistraee. It's weird that she doesn't wear clothes, but everything else about her is cool.

And I'm okay with letting a paladin of Eilistraee qualify for the Initiate feat. I don't know those spells, but if they're okay for the ranger list, I don't imagine they'll cause problems when added to the paladin list, so you've got my approval.

[paladinred]

I have a question regarding multiclassing with classes that have 2 distinct spellcasting paths that need two different stats. Could we make a feat that would allow us to use just one of those stats?

[Delia2531]

49 minutes ago, paladinred said:

I have a question regarding multiclassing with classes that have 2 distinct spellcasting paths that need two different stats. Could we make a feat that would allow us to use just one of those stats?

If a feat exists in an approved source it's already approved; if it exists in Dragon Magazine we can review it, if it's in PF likewise; we've tried to stay away from Homebrew as that feels like a downward spiral to unlimited chaos.

 

That said, there are plenty of feats that swap 'this for that' in other cases, so perhaps we could look at those and see if we want to widen them to spell-casting? If you can find a similar feat for other purposes, we'll take a look.

[Steel Warrior]

It's from a 3rd party source. Bastards and Bloodlines

LOST TRADITION [GENERAL]
You are descended from a group of spellcasters who had very different ways of mastering magic, and you follow in their tradition.
Benefits: Choose one spellcasting class. You may change which ability score governs spellcasting with that class. That ability cannot be changed again.
For example, Meishel Ellazen is a houri cleric. She takes the Lost Tradition feat and chooses to base her clerical spellcasting on Charisma instead of Wisdom. She now uses her Charisma score to determine her bonus spells, spell save DCs, maximum spell level she may cast, and any other calculation regarding her cleric spells.
Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level.