Out-of-Character Stuff

[MrNeech]

The secret to characters with Charisma-based skills in 3.x is to learn the art of social fu and diplomancy (not a misspelling). The way d20 handles high Diplomacy, Handle Animal, and Intimidate (Bluff is also potentially powerful, but it's more A rank while the others are S) enables pulling off tricks that casters need to invest spell slots to copy.

 

Edit: And I almost forgot the power of UMD. The right build means even a couple points cross-class can enable shenanigans.

Edited April 2 by MrNeech (see edit history)

[HydroGuy]

On 4/2/2024 at 1:45 AM, MrNeech said:

The secret to characters with Charisma-based skills in 3.x is to learn the art of social fu and diplomancy (not a misspelling). The way d20 handles high Diplomacy, Handle Animal, and Intimidate (Bluff is also potentially powerful, but it's more A rank while the others are S) enables pulling off tricks that casters need to invest spell slots to copy.

 

Edit: And I almost forgot the power of UMD. The right build means even a couple points cross-class can enable shenanigans.

3.5 at least has some "hard and fast" numbers for most of the skill checks, but it does still leave a lot to the DM/Game Setting so it's power level can really be anywhere on the spectrum, it's just hard to predict where until it's "too late" so to speak.

 

With Gestalt, UMD can be easily supercharged. Just go straight Warlock down one side. It's already a solid class on it's own, with reliable damage output and some solid at-will abilities, but Being able to Take-10 and "Fake" almost any requirement is excellent.

[Grudge]

49 minutes ago, HydroGuy said:

3.5 at least has some "hard and fast" numbers for most of the skill checks, but it does still leave a lot to the DM/Game Setting so it's power level can really be anywhere on the spectrum, it's just hard to predict where until it's "too late" so to speak.

 

With Gestalt, UMD can be easily supercharged. Just go straight Warlock down one side. It's already a solid class on it's own, with reliable damage output and some solid at-will abilities, but Being able to Take-10 and "Fake" almost any requirement is excellent.

I was always overlooked 3.5 Warlock as the "afterthought" class, but saw it could slot as a secondary nicely with my Duskblade and I must confess I am pleasantly surprised. First, it does gel nicely with Duskblade but while the slow amount of stuff you get over time is very, very good. Basically "Here have yourself at will "Mage Armor", why don't you grab permanent Darkvision while you are there, don't forget to come back for your at-will "See Invisibility" and have you picked up your resistances yet?" It is a class made for these kinds of games where you can transfer characters between adventures so it has time to grow to its full potential. True it demands some patience, but Duskblade has enough instant gratification stuff. And by the way, you take Hideous Blow invocation and ask the enemy "You wanna me to reach and touch you with this Eldrich Blow or feel like coming to melee and getting it stuffed up your nose with my sword?" I really slept on this class.

[HydroGuy]

Hideous Blow is usually sort of a trap, but I'm sure the niche builds here could do something with it.

 

If you're doing a single standard attack + channeled spell + EB (assuming all the wording makes it work together) it could be a significant nova/smite, but it doesn't work with full attacks so it'll compete with the higher level channeling, when you get there.

 

There are some other melee options to consider too. Eldritch claws gets you two hits per round, but never any more than that, and of course Eldritch Glaive gets a full attack with reach and touch, but it has it's own limitations. You just need to choose an option and build around it.

 

But yeah, the fact that you can use Warlock effectively, even with negative Charisma, and get a pile of passive/at-will features, makes it a great secondary class. Even a melee brute with no Dex, who is all about the full attacks, can benefit from a slot-less ranged weapon that targets touch AC for those turns when they are still moving into position.

Edited April 3 by HydroGuy (see edit history)

[Rudolf]

And that’s the dilemma of gestalt: more options, but the same number of actions/round. So, imho, you’re better off combining something active that uses your actions with something passive that doesn’t, and instead adds always on or non-combat abilities.

[HydroGuy]

23 minutes ago, Rudolf said:

And that’s the dilemma of gestalt: more options, but the same number of actions/round. So, imho, you’re better off combining something active that uses your actions with something passive that doesn’t, and instead adds always on or non-combat abilities.

With a decent Intelligence, Factotum is great for this as well. Many of it's active features are non-actions that you simply add to other actions that you take. Combined with the fact that your primary resource refills after every encounter makes them almost at-will in practice.

 

With the mountain of skill points and every skill as a class skill, you can make very effective use of Knowledge Devotion for consistent +X to all of your Attack and Damage rolls, offsetting slightly lower physical stats.

[Grudge]

31 minutes ago, HydroGuy said:

Hideous Blow is usually sort of a trap, but I'm sure the niche builds here could do something with it.

 

If you're doing a single standard attack + channeled spell + EB (assuming all the wording makes it work together) it could be a significant nova/smite, but it doesn't work with full attacks so it'll compete with the higher level channeling, when you get there.

 

There are some other melee options to consider too. Eldritch claws gets you two hits per round, but never any more than that, and of course Eldritch Glaive gets a full attack with reach and touch, but it has it's own limitations. You just need to choose an option and build around it.

 

But yeah, the fact that you can use Warlock effectively, even with negative Charisma, and get a pile of passive/at-will features, makes it a great secondary class. Even a melee brute with no Dex, who is all about the full attacks, can benefit from a slot-less ranged weapon that targets touch AC for those turns when they are still moving into position.

See the thing is since I didn't know how good Warlock was, I planned to use it as a nice ranged option with Eldrich Blast being a touch attack and other Warlock goodies picking up as the bonus. The plan was to use Shocking Grasp as the primary channeling spell since it scales nicely for low-level campaigns and gives a bonus when the enemy wears metal armor (which at least half usually do). However, the campaign threw a bit of a wrench in my plans with so far only animals and naked people attacking (well, we are in a madhouse). So I fell back to Eldrich Blast, both ranged and with Hideous Blow, and got to reading Warlock a bit better to see some way to pivot. That's how I actually figured out that if used properly it is far from bad class. If I knew the adventure (but what fun would be then right 😁) I'd probably tweak the build a bit. As it stands, while not optimal it does still work which is a testament to the viability of both classes I think. Mostly so far I take it as a learning experience and I think I might try character with Warlock as the primary class soon if not next.

[MrNeech]

I originally stopped by here to put together a Warlock. I got lost a little along the way because I couldn't find a Gestalt that I gave me a build that I was happy with. Now I realize that the secret ingredient I was missing was the Marshal. Sure, on its own Marshal isn't much of anything outside of a very specific niche, but it has passable Skill points, the holy trinity of social fu, and most importantly simple, straightforward abilities that are focused on the swift action; it's the peanut butter my chocolate needs to enable that sweet, sweet diplomancer warlock.

Alas, I realized this only after I'd put together another character 🤣so I guess I'll keep it in my pocket for future use.

[HydroGuy]

12 minutes ago, MrNeech said:

I originally stopped by here to put together a Warlock. I got lost a little along the way because I couldn't find a Gestalt that I gave me a build that I was happy with. Now I realize that the secret ingredient I was missing was the Marshal. Sure, on its own Marshal isn't much of anything outside of a very specific niche, but it has passable Skill points, the holy trinity of social fu, and most importantly simple, straightforward abilities that are focused on the swift action; it's the peanut butter my chocolate needs to enable that sweet, sweet diplomancer warlock.

Alas, I realized this only after I'd put together another character 🤣so I guess I'll keep it in my pocket for future use.

Marshall is a common pick to get the double-Charisma aura, which can really help get your minimum UMD roll up there to get early access to some of it's uses, and boost your early level face-ness. Most people find the rest of the class pretty disappointing and pop back out after that. Not trying to dissuade you, if you like it and want to do it, go ham.

 

If you like the idea of buffing your allies with auras and providing some other support, I might also suggest looking at the Dragon Shaman. Kind of meh from a stand alone view, but also not bad as a gestalt. D10 HD, Decent breath weapon, good saves, some paladin style healing that synergizes with Charisma, and a couple decent auras. They can also swap one of their auras for a low level Draconic Invocation.

[MrNeech]

9 minutes ago, HydroGuy said:

Marshall is a common pick to get the double-Charisma aura, which can really help get your minimum UMD roll up there to get early access to some of it's uses, and boost your early level face-ness. Most people find the rest of the class pretty disappointing and pop back out after that. Not trying to dissuade you, if you like it and want to do it, go ham.

 

If you like the idea of buffing your allies with auras and providing some other support, I might also suggest looking at the Dragon Shaman. Kind of meh from a stand alone view, but also not bad as a gestalt. D10 HD, Decent breath weapon, good saves, some paladin style healing that synergizes with Charisma, and a couple decent auras. They can also swap one of their auras for a low level Draconic Invocation.

It's not only the powers that appeal to me with the Marshal, but the low micromanagement and utilization of swift actions.

I'd probably try to find a PrC to move that side into after ~fifth level.

[HydroGuy]

56 minutes ago, MrNeech said:

It's not only the powers that appeal to me with the Marshal, but the low micromanagement and utilization of swift actions.

I'd probably try to find a PrC to move that side into after ~fifth level.

If you're Good, maybe Enlightened Spirit would fit. It's a little more Warlock for your Warlock. Keeps the low management theme with mostly passive abilities, adds a couple additional auras to help your friends and debuff your enemies, and frees up a few of your invocations by giving you similar abilities. Just be careful how you stack the levels, if both sides advance EB at the same time you only get one of them, but if you stagger them... you get all of the d6's.

[joran1313]

11 hours ago, MrNeech said:

Alas, I realized this only after I'd put together another character 🤣so I guess I'll keep it in my pocket for future use.

And who says you only have to stop at one character here? Or for that matter 2 or 3? Do it! You know you wanna! Do eeeett!!

[MrNeech]

1 hour ago, joran1313 said:

And who says you only have to stop at one character here? Or for that matter 2 or 3? Do it! You know you wanna! Do eeeett!!

Heh. It's more about how many I feel I can keep up with. That and the fact that the character I'm currently working on is a Totemist | Marshal going Beast Heart Adept heavy on the diplomancy; I wouldn't want the Warlock build to wind up resembling it too much.

[Faeryl_]

As much as high numbers are fun, I've never found diplomacy to be a particularly fun skill. It's less fun to make imaginary friends than it is to make imaginary enemies and then kill them and take their stuff.

[MrNeech]

Everyone has their preferred playstyle. For a long time I wasn't into social fu characters. I usually played beatsticks. Then I tried one for a change of pace and found it was a style that fit me - so these days I tend to lean in that direction or build characters that fit a weird niche. Nothing wrong with killing things and taking stuff, though.