Character Creation

[Grudge]

23 minutes ago, Eborne1 said:

@Grudge .50 cal rifles aren't even on the table.  But as far as "machining" parts from scratch with no machines... I'd say we'll just have to suspend disbelief a bit in some areas.  It is still a fantasy game after all. 😉 

You can flavor any crafted guns however you want, as long as they function as described.      

.50 cal was just an example precisely because it's a bit outlandish, when I see some of today's rifles it still kinda baffles me that exist. And so relatively fast. Imagine a grunt from WW 2 and you say to him. "They are hiding behind the wall you say? Team 1! Over here!" Two guys lugging something that looks like it belongs on a tank show up. Searge says "O.K. eliminate one and incapacitate the other one." They trot off but apparently not too far because soon our beleaguered time traveler still clinging to his M1 hears the sound like a God coughed, soon followed by another. In confusion he's ushered for a push as he approaches the wall he sees two neat holes in it. They are the size of the baseball balls and he can see through unobstructed. Rounding it he sees the corpse, its head, neck, and portion of shoulders are missing. some 10 ft ahead medics are putting a tourniquet on the enemy soldier's leg stump, he was likely hit from behind when he ran after his buddy got...evaporated since grunt saw no head anywhere even bone fragments were minimal. For him, I imagine that would be akin to science fiction. Spotting enemy through the wall with the thermal scope and binoculars to secure not only kill but capture too? As I'm speaking it it sounds ridiculous, yet I'm assured that a similar situation happened by the dude I trust (sans the time traveler 😁 ) in Afghanistan. Not all details are correct 1) for dramatic flare and 2) I forgot some 😳 As I get older my memory is getting full of holes 👴

 

Well as far as Crafting I have no intention to change any mechanics, Id go on the light side from simply reskinning the weapon. Revolver is still a revolver with all the same mechanics but instead of a snubnosed .38 now it looks more like a Smith & Wesson 686 Plus with a 4-inch barrel. On the extreme side (with your approval of course) I could figure out how to put a scope/suppressor on a weapon not meant for it. Or convert single action to semi-automatic. But as I said last 2 would be considered extreme modding and would require GM blessing

[Eborne1]

The basic mechanics of guns won't change much.  Recalibering etc... won't be allowed.  Other gun options may open in the future though and those would be available for crafting at that time.     
 

 

[Grudge]

3 hours ago, Eborne1 said:

The basic mechanics of guns won't change much.  Recalibering etc... won't be allowed.  Other gun options may open in the future though and those would be available for crafting at that time.     
 

 

Just to make sure. Recalibering would be changing the damage  (1d6 to 1d10 for example) and wouldn't have anything to do with the actual look of the gun.

 

"After three weeks cooped up in his shop, Dan finally walked out. And ideally made his way to Saloon, limp from the ambush was still Very noticeable but on his perpetually scowling face it was hard to read how much he was actually bothered by it. What was VERY easy to read...and see was that the old biker-turned-gunsmith was not limping to break bread, or turn another cheek. His old revolver was there in spirit only. The holster was the same but the barrel holding it was not, new chrome glinting on the sun emphasized its size. Longer than even the average Peacemaker, to go with the new barrel that still held only 5 bullets because the width of the cartridge held a third more gunpowder and with it went necessary addition to the frame so damn thing would not be torn apart by its own power, he removed old handle replacing it with a new one made of nicely polished Nall wood. Insides were invisible and thusly incredibly hard to praise or criticize. For those Dan passed they could vouch that at least the frame of the handle was the same since stamp "No 116" was still on it with that Dan limped into the saloon, a second later a bunch of patrons left some even using the windows on the second floor. After that silence lasted exactly 3 seconds per Setlemans reporter who watched at his pocket watch."

 

"Vernon managed to get the first shot off which was obvious since his bullet blew the window out and stuck into the terrace support beam. Then for a second, it seemed as if the summer storm is upon them as the crack was so loud it shook Saloon windows. Ferocity was such that next Vernon shot almost went ignored, like a child's B.B. gun. The next roar followed less than a second after. This one actually made a crack in one of the Saloon's windows. Then silence fell again. Still, before anyone managed to muster the courage and check Vernon walked out in a daze, and while for those looking from the South, he seemed fine anyone else automatically knew that ol' Vern saw better days. A quarter of his head on the right was gone. Brain, eye, half the nose teeth everything, how he was still moving was a miracle, but move he did, slowly but one step at a time he was moving from the Saloon. Even though he was still gripping his pistol, maybe he was just driven by instinct to escape because he just stumbled from the sidewalk on the street and made a few steps before the door of the saloon again opened letting Dan out. Other than having a monster of a weapon in his hand, and a hole in his left shoulder that somehow missed all the metal slowly spreading the dark liquid around the area. Not much changed about him he saw his prey making another step and then cocked his weapon. On the silent street, it sounded loud as a church bell. Vernon didn't even acknowledge it making another step away. Finally, Dan spoke, "Vern don't make me shoot you in the back." Still no reaction and another step away, without hesitation Gunsmith raised his hand lining up a shot.

 

Then something unexpected, some would say unheard of happened, and the young pastor, stepped between them "Stop my son, he won see tomorrow anyway, don't add to the tally of your sins." What was his thought process few would be able to guess, he replaced old pastor Mark not even two months ago and was still getting to know the village. As the replacement for the beloved spiritual figure that led the city for decades, he managed to be well enough accepted. Maybe he saw this as the way to step out of the shadow of another...hell, maybe there was no play just the idealism of the young. Dan did not speak a word but raised his new hand cannon toward Father's head. "You won't shoot me, Dan, I heard about you, you might be a killer but you're no murderer." Gunsmith remained silent, Vern made another step. "How about you lower that thing and we talk about how it came to this?" Dan spat to the side, but his hand did not waver. Vern made another step. "I know it is good in you, I can see..." Sudden realization paralyzed him and he shouted, "Vernon don't move!" Vern made another step making what remained from his head comfortably above the pastor's. Dan was surprised he figured it out at all, he'd make a good soldier.

The 15-inch long perfectly crafted instrument, as meticulously crafted as any piece of medical equipment, pushed to the limit with a 10-inch barrel, next to his worktable in the bin there were 6 others found lacking, as dozens of discarded cartridge casings. It was not easy, but what everyone was looking at as the oversized monster was actually a culmination, his will made manifest. Not merely a weapon, or tool for killing. But death itself, captured in the casing of chrome, steel, and aluminum. Artificial thunder shook the settlement for the third time and Vernon Brag stopped moving his decapitated body sprayed blood from arteries like a fountain a few more seconds before falling down. Dan reholstered the revolver and started long lim toward his workshop. There was a backlog built up while he was working on this, he was sure at least the first few he'll have to give out for free as an apology. The rest will go for various amounts of discount, there will be lean few months ahead. As he limped past he noticed the pastor did not move since his last yell, not even to see the man he tried to save. He stopped next to him and looked into his eyes "And?" Pastor looked confused "I don't understand." "Do you still see good in me?" The youth opened his mouth to give one of the canned responses but stopped himself looking into the black Abyss of Dan's eyes for a while "I don't know." Gunsmith nodded "That's good, you did well today. Just try to prevent your gut instinct from killing you, Mark balanced it well" "You knew Pastor Mark" Dan gave a half-shrug "We occasionally had a bear together. This is a small place." He limped away

 

So this is a short story where he takes the gun from the last chapter of my app (Antique First Generation Colt Single Action Army Revolver, some 116 years old, and creates the Godkiller from it), but both weapons have the same stats. Even if I "bling it out" it is, in essence, the same weapon. Is that what you meant by "no recalibrating?

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Grudge (see edit history)

[Nordal]

I tried to check if someone asked already, but I couldn't find. Are you using fractional saving throws?, standard whichever gets +1 at a given level, or which ever is the strongest at a given level?

Depending on the option favored, the progression would look like one of the following on 20 levels.

Character level	Fractionnal progression	+1 progression	Strongest at given level
1	0	0	0
2	2	2	2
3	3	3	2
4	3	4	3
5	4	4	3
6	4	5	3
7	4	5	3
8	5	6	4
9	5	7	4
10	6	7	4
11	6	7	4
12	7	8	5
13	7	8	5
14	7	8	5
15	8	9	5
16	8	10	6
17	9	10	6
18	9	11	6
19	9	11	6
20	10	12	7

Since the Gunsligner has strong BAB, DEX and CON saves, the question only applies to Will saves. 

[Eborne1]

@Nordal Hello.  Good question.  I need to better familiarize myself with the fractional bonuses system.  I used it once and liked it, but I'm afraid of over-complicating things for new players, so I'm not using it here. 

I suppose I planned on the standard gestalt rule of "whichever is better", but since the Gestalt is only every other level, it does gum things up a bit. 

 

Let me think about that one.    

Edited May 13, 2023 by Eborne1 (see edit history)

[BBK]

11 hours ago, Eborne1 said:

@Nordal Hello.  Good question.  I need to better familiarize myself with the fractional bonuses system.  I used it once and liked it, but I'm afraid of over-complicating things for new players, so I'm not using it here. 

I suppose I planned on the standard gestalt rule of "whichever is better", but since the Gestalt is only every other level, it does gum things up a bit. 

 

Let me think about that one.    

You can actually break it down into super simple math. Here is the bare bones:

• Good Saves = +2.50 at the first level that the class with the Good Save is taken, and +0.50 at every level after 1st.
• Bad Saves = +0.33 at every level (round up to +0.34 at every 3rd level of a Bad Save to go from 0.99 to 1.00)
• You never get +2.50 more than once per Save. 

So, you have 3 levels of Gunslinger that has Good Saves for Fortitude and Reflexes, and a Bad Save for Willpower. Normally, that looks like this:

(Fort, Reflex, Will)

1. +2.50, +2.50, +0.33
2. +0.50, +0.50, +0.33
3. +0.50, +0.50, +0.34

For a total of: 3.50, 3.50, 1.00

The only change that would happen is if you took a class with a Good Save for Will at 2nd level as your Even Level Gestalt class. That would look like this:

(Fort, Reflex, Will)

1. +2.50, +2.50, +0.33
2. +0.50, +0.50, +2.50
3. +0.50, +0.50, +0.33

For a total of: 3.50, 3.50, 3.16

You can put the appropriate fractions into the appropriate parts of the character sheet with no issue because it ignores fractions in the 'Total'. So in the first example, it would show your Saves as Fort 3, Reflex 3, Will 1, and in the second example, it would still display your saves as Fort 3, Reflex 3, Will 3.

Your Saves would be either 3/3/1 if you don't take a gestalt level in a class with good Will Saves, or 3/3/3 if you do. Those would be the only two possible results for this game until level 4.

Edited May 13, 2023 by BBK (see edit history)

[Nordal]

4 hours ago, BBK said:

You can actually break it down into super simple math. Here is the bare bones:

• Good Saves = +2.50 at the first level that the class with the Good Save is taken, and +0.50 at every level after 1st.
• Bad Saves = +0.33 at every level (round up to +0.34 at every 3rd level of a Bad Save to go from 0.99 to 1.00)
• You never get +2.50 more than once per Save. 

So, you have 3 levels of Gunslinger that has Good Saves for Fortitude and Reflexes, and a Bad Save for Willpower. Normally, that looks like this:

(Fort, Reflex, Will)

1. +2.50, +2.50, +0.33
2. +0.50, +0.50, +0.33
3. +0.50, +0.50, +0.34

For a total of: 3.50, 3.50, 1.00

The only change that would happen is if you took a class with a Good Save for Will at 2nd level as your Even Level Gestalt class. That would look like this:

(Fort, Reflex, Will)

1. +2.50, +2.50, +0.33
2. +0.50, +0.50, +2.50
3. +0.50, +0.50, +0.33

For a total of: 3.50, 3.50, 3.16

You can put the appropriate fractions into the appropriate parts of the character sheet with no issue because it ignores fractions in the 'Total'. So in the first example, it would show your Saves as Fort 3, Reflex 3, Will 1, and in the second example, it would still display your saves as Fort 3, Reflex 3, Will 3.

Your Saves would be either 3/3/1 if you don't take a gestalt level in a class with good Will Saves, or 3/3/3 if you do. Those would be the only two possible results for this game until level 4.

I didn't show fraction above, but that's exactly what I calculated. And a player could use the table above for progression over 20 levels should they stick with Strong Will Gestal. 

To Ebornel point, the aspect which will make it more complicated, for newer players especially, is as we level up, we can take different path. one could multiclass from a low to strong Will or vice versa. Again, that's doable, it just requiers a little of guided calculation.

 

 

[Starhawk]

Was pondering going the silent way, using a crossbow instead of a gun, but now am wondering whether its any more silent than a rifle with a suppressor?

[Eborne1]

1 hour ago, Starhawk said:

Was pondering going the silent way, using a crossbow instead of a gun, but now am wondering whether its any more silent than a rifle with a suppressor?

I might get rid of the suppressors.  Or limit their use somehow. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Eborne1 (see edit history)

[Eborne1]

What if I simply added Will Saves to the DOUBLES list for simplicity?  Is that what the +1 progression refers to?  

     

Edited May 14, 2023 by Eborne1 (see edit history)

[Starhawk]

7 hours ago, Eborne1 said:

I might get rid of the suppressors.  Or limit their use somehow. 

Yeah, I was just wondering if crossbows were, for all intents and purposes, practically silent. Just wondering since I know there's no muzzle flash. :)

I was wondering this, since I am debating being not a Bolt Ace but a standard gunslinger. The Dex bonus to damage that comes with the replacement of gunsmith. which bolt ace's don't get, seems just too good to pass up. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Starhawk (see edit history)

[Abalon]

3 hours ago, Starhawk said:

Yeah, I was just wondering if crossbows were, for all intents and purposes, practically silent. Just wondering since I know there's no muzzle flash. 🙂

I was wondering this, since I am debating being not a Bolt Ace but a standard gunslinger. The Dex bonus to damage that comes with the replacement of gunsmith. which bolt ace's don't get, seems just too good to pass up. 

As someone who does archery, bows and crossbows are very silent, the loudest thing is the cord snapping back when you fire. While training I barely heard it from other people next to me, and there was acoustic that made stuff louder (it was inside). I haven't handled a gun, but even with a suppressor I probably would've gone deaf without noise-cancelling gear (judging from videos). And like you said, no muzzle flash.

In terms of rules, I've seen that things seem incredibly weird when it comes to firing stealthily, and haven't found anything resembling a suppressor. So it's Eborne's call. Although since I'm supposed to be a stealthy marksman type, could my gun have it?

[Eborne1]

5 hours ago, Starhawk said:

The Dex bonus to damage that comes with the replacement of gunsmith. which bolt ace's don't get, seems just too good to pass up. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Starhawk

I've ruled that Bolt Ace gets their version of gun training at L1 too.  (unless some, yet unforeseen, detail arises that makes that too powerful for them)   

I'll add it to the compendium on page 1. 

 

[BBK]

Could you use a Traveler's Any-Tool as a suppressor? A suppressor does not contain moving parts. And it would be half the cost of a rifle suppresor, and only 50gp more than one for a pistol. And...magical any-tool for all your other tools needs.

I had originally thought about getting one and taking traits/feats that allow for using improvised weapons effectively as a melee option as well as the most random swiss-army knife ever known. Like using it as a bombchucker, improvised melee weapon, etc.

Edited May 14, 2023 by BBK (see edit history)

[Eborne1]

4 hours ago, BBK said:

Could you use a Traveler's Any-Tool as a suppressor?

This only counts as a masterwork artisan tool, granting a +2 to any Craft/Profession skill... Using it as a gun silencer would effectively turn it into a permanent spell-like effect which I think would be considerably more powerful than its intended use.